Maintaining professionalism at 11 pm...

[SpiraMirabilis]

Waiting until you get to the gate, or later, to cancel your clearance is in the same ballpark, although not as severe, as using the entire runway on landing when approach has someone 2-3mi behind you. You can argue that it is safer, heck because those brakes might not work if you used them, or it is easier to maintain directional control on a slow deceleration but really what it is is a dickmove.

 

[BrewMaster]

This is a cool thing though, particularly about Seggy. He can disagree vehemently with someone and still not piss them off to the point that it is bad. Except when he physically threatened me for making fun of Jersey once. That's why I will never attend NJC.

No, I wasn't personally saying anything about Seggy, just saying I lack his charm and professionalism on here. I've learned to adapt.

 

[Seggy]

It becomes my business when the way you fly your plane interferes with the way i fly mine.

Don't give anyone on here that statement. I don't get my panties balled up when I am number one in line (after waiting two hours) for takeoff in EWR and they say 'All Departures will be held for five minutes awaiting traffic off Linden'. It is interfering with the way I fly mine, as I want to get off the ground and get on my way.

For example, it is annoying that SWA gets special treatment. Is it my business, no, just annoying.

If you really wanna wait until you get to the gate to cancel, ok. I dont agree with it, and i dont think its necessary, but the least you could do is come up with a legitimate reason. I'm guessing its really just because thats how you were told to do it.

Im sure the 717 is beast to handle, and the lowly guys who fly tail draggers in 20k cross winds, or land on ice, or fly skis, or who land on 1800 foot strips, or in a 20 ft wide canal, wouldnt know any anything about the intricacies of driving a transport category plane at 5kts.

.... For the record.

ROADhouse.

Blizzard, unfamiliar airport, uncontrolled field, you make a wrong turn back onto the runway as the taxiways and runways are obscured, right as someone is doing an ILS on that runway.

cool hey Mark I don't get the canceling at the gate thing. Once you are out of the IFR structure (on the taxiway) what good does it do to keep the clearance?
I have never heard of this concept before. Does it have to do with flight following at this point?

See above.

This is a cool thing though, particularly about Seggy. He can disagree vehemently with someone and still not piss them off to the point that it is bad. Except when he physically threatened me for making fun of Jersey once. That's why I will never attend NJC.

Wimpo, you should really come this year.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Let me modify my last post by saying unnecessarily using the entire runway.

 

[cmill]

Don't give anyone on here that statement. I don't get my panties balled up when I am number one in line (after waiting two hours) for takeoff in EWR and they say 'All Departures will be held for five minutes awaiting traffic off Linden'. It is interfering with the way I fly mine, as I want to get off the ground and get on my way.

For example, it is annoying that SWA gets special treatment. Is it my business, no, just annoying.


Find me a reg or AC that says SWA gets priority handling.


Blizzard, unfamiliar airport, uncontrolled field, you make a wrong turn back onto the runway as the taxiways and runways are obscured, right as someone is doing an ILS on that runway.


Well, just dont end up back on the runway. Seriously tho, i can understand that, but the guys who are doing this aint just doing it in blizzards, or in adverse conditions. Its pretty much SOP, regardless.

OTOH though, if the conditions are that bad that you dont think you can find your way to the gate, how do you think the guy in the air feels burnin through his TKS fluid, or desperately poppin the boots while you're sittin on the ground in your leather seat?

 

[Seggy]

Lol. You are funny, but in all seriousness, taxing at any speed greater than stop can get ugly up north. I watched a 1900 slide sideways at slow taxi speeds up at RKD from the right seat. Bit of a pucker factor for me anyhow. Hell, scareacuse NY was a landmine of black ice for taxi.

Also you gotta remember, guys like Seggy had to deal with people in RKD who had a history of giving bad field conditions and almost getting a crew bent up in a ball. If it could happen once it could happen again. We don't always do crazy stuff (to you 135 guys) so that your blood pressure rises and you go grey early.

Thank you Joe, but I do need to correct you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downeast_Airlines

It did happen once and I was certain it wasn't going to happen again with me!

 

[derg]

I think the paranoia about OPS that a lot of passenger airline pilots have is that we're always one bad error in judgement from being involved in a PR nightmare.

When FDX crashed the MD-11 in Asia, it was part of the news cycle for a couple of days. If it were a KLM MD-11 with a full load, there would be senate hearings, hundreds of lawsuits and whatnot.

I'm not saying it's right, but boxes don't have legions of MMS-capable, text messaging people trying to piece together a story and quick to call the news.

 

[Seggy]

Find me a reg or AC that says SWA gets priority handling.

It is well known.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline-pilots/78495-preferrential-treatment-southwest.html

There was another thread about this that wasn't posted by me concerning this within the last few months.

Well, just dont end up back on the runway. Seriously tho, i can understand that, but the guys who are doing this aint just doing it in blizzards, or in adverse conditions. Its pretty much SOP, regardless.

OTOH though, if the conditions are that bad that you dont think you can find your way to the gate, how do you think the guy in the air feels burnin through his TKS fluid, or desperately poppin the boots while you're sittin on the ground in your leather seat?

Just out of curosity, and I don't mean to have this be a ding a ling measuring question, but how much time do you have in Northeast or Midwest winter IFR? If someone is 'Burning through TKS fluid' or 'desperately poppin the boots', should they really be in those conditions?

 

[SteveC]

Blizzard, unfamiliar airport, uncontrolled field, you make a wrong turn back onto the runway as the taxiways and runways are obscured, right as someone is doing an ILS on that runway.

Do you really think it makes sense to shut down an airport to IFR operations just because you might "make a wrong turn"? Really?

I've got to say that I'm in the camp that has not yet heard a VALID reason for not canceling IFR once safely on the ground.

 

[BrewMaster]

I've got to say that I'm in the camp that has not yet heard a VALID reason for not canceling IFR once safely on the ground.

x2

 

[Seggy]

Do you really think it makes sense to shut down an airport to IFR operations just because you might "make a wrong turn"? Really?

I've got to say that I'm in the camp that has not yet heard a VALID reason for not canceling IFR once safely on the ground.

Yes.

Truth be told, I do cancel when I am clear of the runway, BUT, I am trying to reason why others might not allow for that. Kinda playing the Devil's Advocate in this thread.

 

[Boris Badenov]

If someone is 'Burning through TKS fluid' or 'desperately poppin the boots', should they really be in those conditions?

Conversely, if someone is afraid they might drive off the taxiway and explode in to flames if they hit a couple of switches and say "cancel IFR", should THEY really be in those conditions?

 

[cmill]

It is well known.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/airline-pilots/78495-preferrential-treatment-southwest.html

There was another thread about this that wasn't posted by me concerning this within the last few months.
You dont have to present the anecdotal evidence, i know all about it. I was just wondering if you knew of some piece of paper that explicitly gave SWA priority over other airlines.

Just out of curosity, and I don't mean to have this be a ding a ling measuring question, but how much time do you have in Northeast or Midwest winter IFR? If someone is 'Burning through TKS fluid' or 'desperately poppin the boots', should they really be in those conditions?

I dont need a lot of time in the winter NE to know that its not something i want to loiter around in with a finite resource, or with boots that barely get the job done.

My thing is, you're on the ground already. Have a little respect for the guy in the air.

 

[jhugz]

[modhat]now why would you want to egg him on...stick to the debate rater than the petty sniping mmmmk?[/modhat]

My bad...posted angry.

Seriously - pick 10 random people off the street and my guess is that only 1 or 2 are more important than a planeload of iPads...

That's pretty funny stuff.

Doesn't matter what is behind you, when you go splat the front usualy goes first .

Agreed

Nope.

I'm just as dead if I fly a freighter into the dirt as I would be if I had passengers in the back. Regarding safety, my decision making is no different based on the number of people on board.

I've always held the theory that if the cockpit makes it in one piece, then everybody else should be OK.

Agreed

The only difference between Pax vs Cargo is passenger comfort, NOT SAFETY.

In cargo, you learn that there is a difference between "uncomfortable" vs "unsafe". As a pilot of a freighter I don't mind continous light to moderate turbulence, esspecially if I have a good tailwind, or can save a long deviation. Getting bumped around for 20 minutes is not unsafe, it's just unpleasant.

If I did the same thing with passengers, some of them would be terrified and puke all over the airplane.

The point I was making is that therer are other variables you would have to take in account for while flying PAX. Just like I'm sure there are other variables for flying boxes. I agree 100% that one isn't safer then the other however boxes don't bitch.

Do you really think it makes sense to shut down an airport to IFR operations just because you might "make a wrong turn"? Really?

I've got to say that I'm in the camp that has not yet heard a VALID reason for not canceling IFR once safely on the ground.

I'm pretty sure that the worst aviation accident happened IFR in the dark when one airplane ran over another on a runway. Taxi'ing IFR in the dark is no picnic. Low visiblity and w/ intersecting runways w/ no oversight I could see that being a valid reason. Or taxiing on icy runways/taxiways in a snow using all available resources to get the airplane into the gate.

My thing is, you're on the ground already. Have a little respect for the guy in the air.

Agreed, if possible. I've said it before, if you have to spin another time in the hold not my problem, if your situation is bad enough declare an emergency and make it happen.

 

[Cptnchia]

I'm pretty sure that the worst aviation accident happened IFR in the dark when one airplane ran over another on a runway. Taxi'ing IFR in the dark is no picnic. Low visiblity and w/ intersecting runways w/ no oversight I could see that being a valid reason. Or taxiing on icy runways/taxiways in a snow using all available resources to get the airplane into the gate.

Yet the worst runway incursion accidents, involving 121 planes, leading to the largest loss of life, (Tenerife, LAX, etc) all happened at CONTROLLED airports, with the aircraft being directed by GC. The only one that happened at an uncontrolled airport that I can think of offhand in the last few years was the crash between the King Air and United Express carrier at Quincy.

Disclaimer: I didn't include part 91 bugsmashers in this, because, quite frankly, comparing their % of hull losses per # of flight hours to 135 or 121 is apples to oranges.

 

[surreal1221]

Don't you 121 guys get it?

Don't follow your OM/FOM or any other directed publication from your company.

Standard means little to some of our professional peers, same goes with flying on profile...make up your own rules, come on...don't be a wimp.

 

[cmill]

I could go in circles a couple more times, and i could declare an emergency, or you could just cancel and get out of everyones way.

Something to consider, until you cancel IFR, everyone has to assume that you're still in he air. There are places where the entire approach is done without radar contact and with spotty radio comms. So, it would be conceivable that i decide to declare an emergency thinking you're taking your sweet time, when you've really gone missed an are on the out bound leg, out of radar contact, and un able to get in touch with ATC. Now im descending on the inbound, and you're climbing on the outbound. Not a situation i would want to be in.

Separation services are meant for the air. Cancel as soon as you can and take care of the rest over CTAF. You get zero benefit by not canceling and are only holding up other planes.

 

[The Gardener]

This thread is cute. :clap:

 

[cmill]

Don't you 121 guys get it?

Don't follow your OM/FOM or any other directed publication from your company.

Standard means little to some of our professional peers, same goes with flying on profile...make up your own rules, come on...don't be a wimp.

Because the FOM is always right. Your FOM is meant to create as little liability for your airline as possible, even if it means creating a hazardous situation for someone else.

While we're taking pot shots, you know the only reason they have the FOM is because they really dont trust you to do things the right way, huh? I mean 121 guys are so professional that they'll err on the side of caution by keeping a flight plan open, but apparently cant recover from a stall, or will run through an entire checklist while the plane is burning.

Id prolly lose all my common sense too, if i was given a procedure on how to take a piss. Some of us arent spoon fed everything, and we have to make the best out of what we have.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Don't you 121 guys get it?

Don't follow your OM/FOM or any other directed publication from your company.

Standard means little to some of our professional peers, same goes with flying on profile...make up your own rules, come on...don't be a wimp.

Find me a FOM or whatever that requires an airplane to maintain IFR services while taxiing to the gate and I'll eat everything I've said, humbly too. Until then Cancel IFR asap after turning off the runway, and I'll even monitor CTAF incase you get hopelessly lost and wander onto a runway.