Maintaining professionalism at 11 pm...

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OK, after shaking my head in disbelief at this thread and vowing to not get drawn in, I apparently can't help myself.

After flying small singles to heavy transport aircraft into all kinds of controlled/non controlled airports, winter and summer, all I can say is this is a ridiculous argument. Regardless of WX conditions, maintaining IFR to the gate is a waste of resources. It only takes a few seconds to cancel, and as an FO, if you can't run an after landing checklist and cancel with center/approach plus make CTAF calls clear of the runway, how can you run an after landing checklist and talk to ground/ramp at a controlled airport?

As for the argument about maintaining IFR in case you crash off the taxiway, (really!?) Center/approach isn't going to be a player, unless you get a frantic call off as you careen into the dirt. Part 39 CFR requirements for an uncontrolled field place the reporting requirement for a crash/incident on the ground station. Every uncontrolled field I flew into part 121, had a big red button in ops that alerted the nearest CFR station to the problem.

But what do I know? I've only been doing this (part 121,) for the last 16 years. I'm sure you youngsters have a lot more experience than me.:rolleyes:
 
ppragman said:
Also, having landing on iced over runways in multiple types and sizes of airplane, your logic doesn't work. If you maintain directional control like your supposed to anyway, and fly the airplane all the way clear of the runway, you'll be fine.
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Just out of curiosity what was the heaviest airplane you've landed on a slick runway and just how fast were you going?

This has absolutely nothing to do with the original thread but I'm wondering.

Our OpSpecs allow us to cancel in the air as long as we can maintain communication with somebody on the ground (normally our ops guys). That said, it's very rare I'll cancel in flight. On the ground, as soon as we clear the runway? Sure. I've got no problem with that.
 
BajtheJino said:
Bangothemango...I like it!
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Hehe. Alert Doug, username switch time.

In all honesty we need to make a open forum between 135 companies and 121 companies to get these gripes aired out. Hopefully, the 121 guy, is never gonna get real cavalier with the, "just cancel, the survivors in the back will call up 911 long before anyone at FSS will help us out," but perhaps there's some middle ground. It's not that small of a sky and hanging out for 5 minutes while someone is doing something safety related is a bizarre thing to bitch about, however if it gets up around 15 min there probably needs to be some questions asked.

We haven't gotten on Mesaba's ass about how long it takes us to run checklists in a while, someone should break out that little gem again.

Perhaps we should have a thread for the passage of a new bill in which 135 and 91 guys can pull the CVR's of a regional guy who pissed them off and have a theater showing where everyone can come in and pile on. Throw popcorn, boo when a checklist is run, IDK, whatever.

lghr17100+old-school-statler-and-waldorf-poster.jpg
 
ppragman said:
If you maintain directional control like your supposed to anyway, and fly the airplane all the way clear of the runway, you'll be fine.
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BobDDuck said:
Just out of curiosity what was the heaviest airplane you've landed on a slick runway and just how fast were you going?
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I have to agree with ppragman's comment and it was a 767ER with a Vref of around 150 Knots. You?
 
I've got no problem with guys not canceling in the air. I know some airlines can't legally. But to taxi to the gate for 10 minutes with IFR services tied up, while I'm holding in the soup pumping out TKS to keep the wings clear, there is absolutely no reason for that. Whats the difference between telling center "I'm on the ground, cancel IFR" while doing checklists, and talking to ground for taxi instructions? If moving the airplane and talking on the radio to cancel IFR takes so much multi tasking resources, have any of you that advocate taking IFR all the way to the gate ever talked on the radio to ground control while taxiing? If yes, then you are being quite the hypocrite.

Its not like waiting 30 minutes for center to think about looking for you will save anyone's hides if you do go off the side of a taxiway at 5 kts.

And if moving an airplane and canceling IFR is such an event, why not stop the airplane past the hold line and cancel. You guys are such big proponents of using the parking brake to get your point across, why not use it to help out the whole system? You'll get paid the extra 1 minute of overs anyway.

Whatever:rolleyes:
 
Is this some kind of a joke? It requires TWO steely-eyed Aviators to taxi the junglejet to the gate at a walking pace, lest the thing burst in to flames? Ok, fine. STOP. Cancel. Continue. This is not exactly destroying certain supposedly undeserved stereotypes...
 
I love 91 flying.

-Pick up the outbound IFR when you're 20 miles from the airport
-Shoot an approach to minimums
-Land and cancel IFR on the roll out.
-Set takeoff flaps instead of flaps up on the taxi in so you save a little wear and tear on the flap motor
-Three minute quick turn; go inside, grab the passenger, throw the person and bags in the airplane
-Call for release while you're running the checklist on the taxi out
-Airborne again 5 minutes after you landed.

All the while, the line guy is still standing on the ramp trying to figure out WTF is going on.
 
Cptnchia said:
OK, after shaking my head in disbelief at this thread and vowing to not get drawn in, I apparently can't help myself.

After flying small singles to heavy transport aircraft into all kinds of controlled/non controlled airports, winter and summer, all I can say is this is a ridiculous argument. Regardless of WX conditions, maintaining IFR to the gate is a waste of resources. It only takes a few seconds to cancel, and as an FO, if you can't run an after landing checklist and cancel with center/approach plus make CTAF calls clear of the runway, how can you run an after landing checklist and talk to ground/ramp at a controlled airport?

As for the argument about maintaining IFR in case you crash off the taxiway, (really!?) Center/approach isn't going to be a player, unless you get a frantic call off as you careen into the dirt. Part 39 CFR requirements for an uncontrolled field place the reporting requirement for a crash/incident on the ground station. Every uncontrolled field I flew into part 121, had a big red button in ops that alerted the nearest CFR station to the problem.

But what do I know? I've only been doing this (part 121,) for the last 16 years. I'm sure you youngsters have a lot more experience than me.:rolleyes:
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I love YOU... (no homo, whatever that means)
 
Cptnchia said:
I have to agree with ppragman's comment and it was a 767ER with a Vref of around 150 Knots. You?
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You've never had the anti skid doing just about everything it can to keep you on the runway and still finding your self sliding sideways? Must be all that ATL operations ya'll do. :)

For the record I can't compare weights but I can beat you on speeds. Not the point though. My point was that a 206 landing on a slick runway is in no way comparable to a transport jet (or even a CJ something) landing on a slick runway.
 
BobDDuck said:
My point was that a 206 landing on a slick runway is in no way comparable to a transport jet (or even a CJ something) landing on a slick runway.
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Fully loaded 206 landing on 2500 X 25 ft of ice covered runway compares pretty close to landing a RJ on a 6000 X 150 ft plowed, groved runway.
 
BobDDuck said:
You've never had the anti skid doing just about everything it can to keep you on the runway and still finding your self sliding sideways? Must be all that ATL operations ya'll do. :)

For the record I can't compare weights but I can beat you on speeds. Not the point though. My point was that a 206 landing on a slick runway is in no way comparable to a transport jet (or even a CJ something) landing on a slick runway.
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I guess my confusion on this issue is that, once you are on the taxiway you will not be entering back into the IFR structure, and with the runway clear, the airport is open for the next aircraft to do the approach. I don't understand why keeping the airport approaches closed until you taxi (very slowly on the icy runway from want I gather) while folks are banging it out in the ice trying to get in.
 
BobDDuck said:
Just out of curiosity what was the heaviest airplane you've landed on a slick runway and just how fast were you going?

This has absolutely nothing to do with the original thread but I'm wondering.

Our OpSpecs allow us to cancel in the air as long as we can maintain communication with somebody on the ground (normally our ops guys). That said, it's very rare I'll cancel in flight. On the ground, as soon as we clear the runway? Sure. I've got no problem with that.
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B1900C in Bethel on what turned out to be essentially nil breaking action on the taxi way (non reported, we were the first people to come in in awhile), and we landed with Vref at 125kts (because we had the 1000lbs gross weight increase STC). We had to use various settings of beta to control how much we were drifting sideways on the ramp, and I fell on my ass when I stepped off the airstair door.

We still canceled when we had the field in sight about 20NM out.
 
BobDDuck said:
You've never had the anti skid doing just about everything it can to keep you on the runway and still finding your self sliding sideways? Must be all that ATL operations ya'll do. :)

For the record I can't compare weights but I can beat you on speeds. Not the point though. My point was that a 206 landing on a slick runway is in no way comparable to a transport jet (or even a CJ something) landing on a slick runway.
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The fastest I've ever landed was an RJ O flaps on an icy runway in CLE with a 12 kt crosswind at close to 200 kts. But this isn't about who has the biggest..........

The fact of the matter is that I learned to fly in a taildragger, where if you didn't fly your plane all the way to tiedown, you were a groundloop waiting to happen. Still fly one too. Same principle applies regardless of airplane type or size. Too many pilots dump the nosegear on the runway and just give up directional control to the nosewheel steering. But again, that isn't what the OP was talking about. If you can't taxi an airplane clear of the runway while talking on the radio, especially with another pilot helping, then I'd say someone needs some remedial training.
 
This thread has been an eye opener. As Bangothemango put it I have 0 experience in 121 so I'm not going to give advice I don't have experience on. What I would like to say is that hopefully the person that doesn't cancel after landing has the right intentions. If they simply forgot to cancel or they put off the cancellation due to not caring....then that person needs to evaluate themself as a pilot IMO.:pirate:
 
What if zombies attack on the taxi to the ramp with a closed flight plan? :)
 
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