Maintaining Control in Stalls

[sdfcvoh]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

I cannot begin to explain my complete surprise at the percentage of students and renters I encounter who are scared of stalls. I think the main reason is the serious under-training most people receive in regard to the aerodynamics of the stall. Ultimately, I make sure that anyone I'm training arrives at a point of understanding about use of rudders during the stalled wing maneuver. My initial instructors were seriously scared of stalls, and it wasn't until preparing for my CFI that I truly became aware of the "why" of the situation when it comes to rudder use instead of aileron use.

I've found that in order to really get understanding and application into the pilot's head, it requires recovery with hands off the controls of aileron completely.

If the pilot continues to use ailerons in a stalled condition, I have them attempt recovery from two different uncoordinated stalls in the following order.

1: First stall - not allowed to use rudders. They must attempt recovery completely with aileron.
2: Second stall - not allowed to use ailerons. They must go hands off the yoke and use only rudder for recovery.

It is always enjoyable to watch the renter pilot or student truly experience how bad it is to use ailerons through the recovery exercise. I've found that following the demonstration, pilots seem to immediately grasp that rudder is the only mechanism to use initiating recovery during the stall.

Of course, there is more to recovery than only using rudder, but this practice at least lends safely to insuring I won't climb out of an airplane with a renter or student who will ever try to roll out of an uncoordinated stall with ailerons again.

 

[phoenix 23684]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

I got a little scared today practicing stalls with my instructor. The wing dropped a little to the left as I was pulling way back on the yoke to stall. My instructor reacted quick with right rudder and said if he didn't react to it wiuld enter a spin. He said to try keep the wings level when approaching the stall, but it's so hard to do. Should I be using ailerons or rudder to keep it level as I'm pulling back?

Was this in a C-172? If so your instructor is Bsing you too much. You have to work harder at trying to spin a cessna than preventing it from spinning. My best advice is relax, stalling is nothing more than another aspect of flying. look outside and keep the thing level if after it stalls a wing does drop then only use the opposite rudder to correct it as you apply your stall recovery. but like I said the main thing here is just to try and relax and look outside.

 

[ozziecat35]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

I've never really been all that concerned with stalls, maybe because an SR20 stalls very cleanly...you truly get the falling leaf feeling, however no flap approaches initally scared the bejeezus out of me...felt like I was falling out of the sky dragging way to much speed and heading for a tailstrike...

 

[yoman793]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

right rudder! right rudder!

 

[bunk22]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

Let's see, stud is supposed to do a barrel roll but pulls nose 70 degress nose up with no roll then pulls back on stick to inverted and departs. I have controls....neutral...idle...nose low and recover. I guess it was kind of a stall

 

[texas_pilot]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

Stalls scared me when I was a PPL student. They scared my instructor too.

I never really felt comfortable with them until I actually did spin training during my CFI school. Once I started spinning, I laughed at my fear of a stall. I think it was the unknown of what a spin actually was.

It will be a good thing for your instructor to spin you. I wish mine had.

Did it, didn't like it, won't ever like it- Not my cup of tea.
I counted those revolutions very carefully- believe me when I say 4 revs was NOT an option!

 

[deadstick]

The thing have watched time after time is the lack of aileron/rudder coordination in slow flight.

After watching the DG rotate clockwise past 20 or 30, I might say right rudder. BAM! Right rudder, followed by a roll to the right. Here we GO!

If your wings are level, and you apply rudder without adding a little opposite aileron, the aircraft will roll in the direction of the rudder application. Add a little opposite aileron when you add the rudder and then neutralize them to keep the wings level.

 

[jhugz]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

I've never really been all that concerned with stalls, maybe because an SR20 stalls very cleanly...you truly get the falling leaf feeling, however no flap approaches initally scared the bejeezus out of me...felt like I was falling out of the sky dragging way to much speed and heading for a tailstrike...

The Cirri are not even fair...you drop a wing just use opposite aileron.

 

[jspeed87]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

Was this in a C-172? If so your instructor is Bsing you too much. You have to work harder at trying to spin a cessna than preventing it from spinning. My best advice is relax, stalling is nothing more than another aspect of flying. look outside and keep the thing level if after it stalls a wing does drop then only use the opposite rudder to correct it as you apply your stall recovery. but like I said the main thing here is just to try and relax and look outside.

C172P. I just got scared because of how quickly my instructor reacted, My controls!

 

[phoenix 23684]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

C172P. I just got scared because of how quickly my instructor reacted, My controls!

Sorry to hear, that's not helping your comfort level if he snatches the controls away from you like that. Here's the sad part, many CFIs are not comfortably in offset training. As you read from another post one is terrified of spins, I bet money your instructor is too.

When I take students up for their stalls I don't touch the controls, specially in a C-172 and keep very calm. You have plenty ski between you and the ground and I'm sure you heard the rumors that if you ever get into a spin in a cessna and don't know what to do, simple let go. Well is true, I do aerobatics, Pitts, Citabria. When I did my CFI spins, I did 4 revolutions and the moment I stopped with the rudder and cross control, the darn thing stopped spinning. I was more used to taking 90-180 degrees to break a spin in a pitts.

If this instructor is too uncomfortable with stalls, maybe go up with one who isn't. In the end just relax and enjoy the ride.

 

[sdfcvoh]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

Ditto! Being uncomfortable with stalls is completely normal at the beginning. There is nothing to be concerned about. Ask your instructor if he'll let you go up higher (maybe another 1000AGL from where you've been practicing.) Maybe that will make him more comfortable.

Stalls are completely normal, safe, and important. Understand that the airplane is NOT going to dive into a death spin or spiral. If it's a Cessna, all you ultimately need to do is let go. The airplane will recover completely on it's own as long as you aren't skimming the ground when it happens. You are not in danger.

Sorry to hear, that's not helping your comfort level if he snatches the controls away from you like that. Here's the sad part, many CFIs are not comfortably in offset training. As you read from another post one is terrified of spins, I bet money your instructor is too.

When I take students up for their stalls I don't touch the controls, specially in a C-172 and keep very calm. You have plenty ski between you and the ground and I'm sure you heard the rumors that if you ever get into a spin in a cessna and don't know what to do, simple let go. Well is true, I do aerobatics, Pitts, Citabria. When I did my CFI spins, I did 4 revolutions and the moment I stopped with the rudder and cross control, the darn thing stopped spinning. I was more used to taking 90-180 degrees to break a spin in a pitts.

If this instructor is too uncomfortable with stalls, maybe go up with one who isn't. In the end just relax and enjoy the ride.

 

[Douglas]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

C172P. I just got scared because of how quickly my instructor reacted, My controls!

HMMM, I hope the instructor was really only worried about you getting scared out of flying from putting yourself in to a spin. Sounds like you were cool as a cucumber though.

Somebody said it is "floating leaf and spin time"....ditto x2

For the instructor as well if he was actually scared.

edit: and to your original question - you can use aileron to level the wings, like others have said.

 

[sdfcvoh]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

HMMM, I hope the instructor was really only worried about you getting scared out of flying from putting yourself in to a spin. Sounds like you were cool as a cucumber though.

Somebody said it is "floating leaf and spin time"....ditto x2

For the instructor as well if he was actually scared.

edit: and to your original question - you can use aileron to level the wings, like others have said.

Okay... lets talk AOA and Chord Line with aileron ... Aileron = bad idea.

 

[///AMG]

There is a theoretical argument for not using ailerons to level the wings upon recovery, but that said, I have never departed an aircraft by using this method. Worked in a cessna, and it still works in the swept wing jet I fly today. If you throw the stick/yoke over fully as the aircraft is just breaking the stall, yeah it is likely that you will get some wallowing and wing wagging, perhaps even a full departure if you are really ham-fisted. The key is just doing it smoothly (like anything in an airplane). The most important thing in recovery is getting the wings and the lifties fully underneath you. In terms of maintaining directional control prior to the stall, I personally do the rudder dance. The difference here is that prior to the stall, the wings are at such a high AoA already that any little upset (like using ailerons) will cause a full stall. If you want to control the aircraft all the way up to the stall, you have to do it with rudder.

 

[JaceTheAce]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

Maintaining control in stalls:

 

[tgrayson]

There is a theoretical argument for not using ailerons to level the wings upon recovery

Even the Airplane Flying Handbook (AFH) recommends leveling the wings with coordinated aileron and rudder; none of this "raise the wing with the rudder" stuff. But a wing dropping is low priority. The dropping wing is a symptom of the stall, so the first step is to break the stall, not raise the wing. The proper stall recovery technique according to the AFH is

1) Reduce AoA,
2) Apply full power, and
3) Roll level using coordinated aileron and rudder.

As for setting up the stall, I also find that using coordinated rudder and aileron works just fine, with the added advantage of having control usage consistent with other flight regimes.

 

[Douglas]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

Okay... lets talk AOA and Chord Line with aileron ... Aileron = bad idea.

I don't get what you are getting at when you say "AOA and Chord Line".

I understand you think it is a bad idea, but why?

 

[juxtapilot]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

I don't get what you are getting at when you say "AOA and Chord Line".

I understand you think it is a bad idea, but why?

In stall right wing drops. You apply left aileron, decreases AOA on left wing, increases AOA on right wing. Right wing exceeds Critical AOA, you spin.

 

[///AMG]

Re: Maintaing Control in Stalls

In stall right wing drops. You apply left aileron, decreases AOA on left wing, increases AOA on right wing. Right wing exceeds Critical AOA, you spin.

I think he was wondering what chord line had to do with it.....obviously it is used to define AOA, but I guess most of us just talk of AOA in itself

 

[CaptainChris87]

I got a little scared today practicing stalls with my instructor. The wing dropped a little to the left as I was pulling way back on the yoke to stall. My instructor reacted quick with right rudder and said if he didn't react to it wiuld enter a spin. He said to try keep the wings level when approaching the stall, but it's so hard to do. Should I be using ailerons or rudder to keep it level as I'm pulling back?

What Aircraft were you practicing stalls in? Yeah the Ailerons are not effective at all in a stall, if any it will aggrevate it to a spin. Always use rudder to keep the airplane co ordianted during stall demos. But remember to also look outside and a bit on the Heading Indicator just to make sure you are still on your selected heading if you cant see your landmark. I dont know if Full right rudder was necessary?? If this was in a 172, with half tanks or in the utility catagory it should be fine.