Magnetic Heading vs Extending Centerline on Takeoff

N

njdem82

New Member
Hi All,
I have a question on takeoff heading. Most of the CFI's which I have spoken to say that after takeoff one must stay on an extended centerline and correct for wind. This makes sense to me as I certainly don't want to drift into a paralell runway and also because visual seperation is my responsibility. This is what I was taught and on my first check ride (I have had two so far both VFR (ppl and an add on) the DPE was adamant about this practice.

However I got chewed out on my second check ride as the DPE said that "cleared for runway heading means magnetic heading". This also corresponds with what I saw on a Sporty's Private Practical Airmanship Video . that one should fly magnetic heading after takeoff and not correct for wind because they don't want a situation where one pilot is correcting for wind and the other is not which could create a possible conflict (ofcourse the same situation could happen in the opposite) and because they will vector you if the wind is affecting your smaller plane more than a larger aircraft on paralell runway.

In any case it seems like there is some confusion about this and I could not find any guidance in the FAR/AIM about this. I don't want to anger any DPE's at the beggining of a flight and above all I want to make sure that I am safe in case I cannot see the other aircraft.

So I was hoping that you guys could chime in on this one as I don't really have the experience to know what the general consensus is (if there is one) . Thank You.
 
Under VFR, fly an extended centerline UNLESS instructed to "fly runway heading". Under IFR, fly runway heading unless instructed otherwise.
 
Thanks for the answer , it certainly makes sense .

Just to clear something up , which I just noticed that I did not make clear in the first post, is that on both check rides I was cleared to "fly runway heading".

Also in this particular airport in Daytona Beach DAB I have very rarely gotten an initial heading except for runway heading yet everyone that I have flown with still insists on extended centerline and I have yet to hear ATC comment on this. Thats where the confusion comes in for me.
 
aloft said:
Under VFR, fly an extended centerline UNLESS instructed to "fly runway heading". Under IFR, fly runway heading unless instructed otherwise.
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That is the correct answer. The fact ATC has not corrected you is not surprising. There are a great many things pilots do incorrectly that never draw a comment from ATC. If someone tell you that "fly runway heading" means to fly the extended centerline of the runway, just ask them to show it to you in any FAA publication and continue to fly the magnetic heading until such time as they can do that.
 
I have had ATC yell at my student for doing runway heading instead of the extended center line even though "fly runway heading" was part of the missed approach clearance. We had a direct crosswind and they were wondering why we were flying over the national guard base on the field.
 
I think this is one of those areas where even ATC doesn't have a standardized expectation.

I try to keep good situational awareness about what other aircraft are doing around me and fly accordingly to help ATC out. Sometimes that means holding the centerline, sometimes that means letting the plane drift.

Ironically, this topic has never been brought up to me by a trainee, even though my airport has parallel runways and "fly runway heading" is a common instruction.
 
aloft said:
Under VFR, fly an extended centerline UNLESS instructed to "fly runway heading". Under IFR, fly runway heading unless instructed otherwise.
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Surely you mean "Under IFR, fly the ODP, then per your clearance, unless instructed otherwise". ;)

-mini
 
Maurus said:
I have had ATC yell at my student for doing runway heading instead of the extended center line even though "fly runway heading" was part of the missed approach clearance. We had a direct crosswind and they were wondering why we were flying over the national guard base on the field.
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Good example of a commonly misunderstood ATC phrase. We must all keep in mind that an ATC instruction does not over-ride a pilot's safety-of-flight decision on the operation of his aircraft at that moment.

In the beginning of flight training, and at non-towered airports, the primary safest way to fly a traffic pattern is a ground track.
When under the control of ATC, the control of traffic by heading separation must be done by everyone flying heading instead of ground track.

But that does not include the take off and landing portion of your flight path. You, as PIC must control the ground track of the aircraft approaching and departing the runway environment. The missed approach profile (or the climb gradient profile) begins at the departure end at 35 feet. That's what I use as the runway environment. Track the runway to at least 35 feet, then track to the departure end unless told to turn, or I can see visually that following an assigned heading will not cause an unsafe drift when I am still at low (2-300') altitudes.

Being told to fly a heading does not relieve the pilot of unsafe practice. ATC expects the pilot to fly the airplane up out of the runway environment profile, called the "take-off", then transition into the "departure climb", and then fly the assigned heading.
 
minitour said:
Surely you mean "Under IFR, fly the ODP, then per your clearance, unless instructed otherwise". ;)

-mini
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If there is an ODP at that field, maybe, but a lot of fields don't have them. Either way, the general instruction to delay all turns until 400' and clear of the departure end of the runway (if it can be determined) would still apply under IFR, whether or not an ODP exists (unless the ODP specifically says to turn earlier, or you receive instructions to do so).
I've always applied that instruction to mean "wind corrected runway heading" at least until I get past the end of the runway, and then the actual runway heading past that point, since it's based on TERPS criteria for terrain clearance. That rule is trying to prevent you from turning into airfield obstructions, so it kind of made common sense to me that way.
 
fish314 said:
I've always applied that instruction to mean "wind corrected runway heading" at least until I get past the end of the runway, and then the actual runway heading past that point, since it's based on TERPS criteria for terrain clearance. That rule is trying to prevent you from turning into airfield obstructions, so it kind of made common sense to me that way.
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I, and every single pilot I've flown with at both air carriers, who get a "runway heading" clearance set the bug to runway heading and fly that.

Here's the caveat, all three of the automated aircraft I have flown have a takeoff submode for the flight director system. The aircraft remains in that until certain parameters are met, but generally 400' is the minimum. That Takeoff submode, depending on the manufacturer, either did a ground track or a "wings level" standard. All were FAA certified for use in the takeoff phase of flight.

In full disclosure, all three are part 25 jets also.
 
Pilot/Controller Glossary in the AIM p.1007:

Runway Heading. The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number. When cleared to "fly or maintain runway heading," pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponeds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correctionshall not be applied; e.g. Runway 4, actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline 044, fly 044.

Hope this helps.
 
minitour said:
Obviously. :rolleyes:


And how would you propose that when it's 1800 RVR and 100' overcast?

-mini
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I don't. I just fly the runway heading with no drift killed. But if I can see the runway to stay over it I try to, at least until DER and 400'.

Polar742 said:
I, and every single pilot I've flown with at both air carriers, who get a "runway heading" clearance set the bug to runway heading and fly that.

Here's the caveat, all three of the automated aircraft I have flown have a takeoff submode for the flight director system. The aircraft remains in that until certain parameters are met, but generally 400' is the minimum. That Takeoff submode, depending on the manufacturer, either did a ground track or a "wings level" standard. All were FAA certified for use in the takeoff phase of flight.

In full disclosure, all three are part 25 jets also.
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Ours has that feature as well. It just gives "wings level". And actually, if you deviate from that, it doesn't provide a correction back. So if you deviate 30 degrees off runway heading (or 180 degrees for that matter), the command bars still just display a straight and level.
 
How would ATC normally instruct an aircraft to fly the extended centerline? "Fly extended runway centerline" ???

Is it even ok for ATC to instruct an IFR Insturment Flight Rules aicraft to do this?
 
For the record, I think a pilot "technically" should point their nose down the runway and allow the plane to drift. That's the textbook answer.

But think for a minute in the real world what that means in the plane you're flying.

In a jet, what speed do you climb at? 200 knots?

In my C-140, I climb at about 55-60 knots.

Add a 30 knot crosswind in to the mix and my plane will literally fly sideways. I'd be deviating from the runway centerline at about a 30 degree angle.

In a 200 knot jet it becomes an 8 degree change.

No matter what the jet pilot does, be it flying a heading or flying a ground track, it won't make much of a difference. The controller probably can't tell the difference.

But knowing that my plane very well might end up 30 degrees off from where the controller wants me to be, a lot of times I'll crab a bit in to the wind to maintain a ground track closer to centerline. I do this not because it's the "right" way to do it as much as that I know what the controller means, rather than what they say. I've never had a problem because of this technique.

On a checkride I'd probably either truly fly the heading and allow the plane to drift or query the controller as to what they'd like me to do.
 
The FAA is pretty clear on what is expected.

RUNWAY HEADING- The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number. When cleared to "fly or maintain runway heading," pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correction shall not be applied; e.g., Runway 4, actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline 044, fly 044.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/R.HTM

-mini
 
minitour said:
The FAA is pretty clear on what is expected.

RUNWAY HEADING- The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number. When cleared to "fly or maintain runway heading," pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correction shall not be applied; e.g., Runway 4, actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline 044, fly 044.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/R.HTM

-mini
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I agree. That's the textbook FAA checkride way of doing things.

The thing is, a lot of controllers don't seem to expect "out of the ordinary" situations like flying my C-140 in 30 knot crosswinds. They expect me to drift 10 or 15 degrees off centerline, then I go shooting off at a 30 or 40 degree angle. It saves us both some trouble if I crab a bit.
 
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