Magnetic Heading vs Extending Centerline on Takeoff

[nosehair]

And when it's 100' and RVR 1800, you're going to do that how?

-mini

As I said, or thought I said, during the take-off or landing portion of the flight below the 100' and within the 1800 RVR.
Specifically, I think we should track the runway during take-off to 35'. During this portion of the lift-off, the pilot can see any necessary drift correction and will be able to see if a turn to assigned heading would cause a safety issue.

And for the record, the strong 30 knot crosswinds that make this a problem don't exist with 100' ceilings and quarter mile vis. These conditions usually are a visual take-off to at least 4-500'. I'm talking about the strong x-winds for small aircraft where a 30 k wind is a half to third of the climb speed. The airplane will drift into an unsafe environment if you immediately go to heading on lift off.

This is not an issue for fast movers and climbers.

Plus, I'm not talking about the extended centerline area, just the over-the-run way portion.

 

[shdw]

"cleared for runway heading means magnetic heading"

RUNWAY HEADING- The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number. When cleared to “fly or maintain runway heading,” pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correction shall not be applied; e.g., Runway 4, actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline 044, fly 044.

From the 7110.

However, this terminology "runway heading" is only located in sections referencing instrument procedures. I found no mention of this term, or similar terms, located in any VFR procedures. I would suspect there is no such thing as a "fly runway heading" for a visual pilot.

You can't let yourself drift when all the other VFR pilots were taught ground reference in their training, so they shouldn't be drifting. If you are VFR, fly VFR.

 

[minitour]

However, this terminology "runway heading" is only located in sections referencing instrument procedures. I found no mention of this term, or similar terms, located in any VFR procedures. I would suspect there is no such thing as a "fly runway heading" for a visual pilot.

Out of my home 'drome we were always given departure instructions whether VFR or IFR. Often, that included the instruction to fly runway heading.

Same out of some nearby Class Bs and Cs.

You just teach them the difference between "Runway Heading" and "fly straight out" (which I've only heard one time I believe).

-mini

 

[shdw]

You just teach them the difference between "Runway Heading" and "fly straight out" (which I've only heard one time I believe).

All I said is what was/wasn't in the 7110. Do you interpret what it differently?

They mention "runway heading," but only use use this particular meaning in the IFR sections. They don't mention it in any VFR section I could find. At least not that I could find in the 100 or so mentions of VFR in this:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

I don't know what that means, I'd love some opinions. I just don't see how we can fly a command that doesn't appear should be used for a VFR departure per 7110.

 

[minitour]

I just don't see how we can fly a command that doesn't appear should be used for a VFR departure per 7110.

So next time I should tell the tower I can't fly the runway heading because I'm VFR?

I like to make it simple. When instructed to "fly runway heading", you make the little number at the top of the DG match the big number painted on the runway.

-mini

 

[deadstick]

Under VFR, fly an extended centerline UNLESS instructed to "fly runway heading". Under IFR, fly runway heading unless instructed otherwise.

This was #2 and following KISS --- it's a keeper.

As for the 35-100 IFR following the runway, well, I gotta disagree with that. If you are doing a Lower Than Standard t/o, you are essentially IMC on the runway and you have NO forward visibility once you rotate AND are looking "inside." At least I hope that is the case. There is no way to track anything outside.

 

[shdw]

When instructed to "fly runway heading", you make the little number at the top of the DG match the big number painted on the runway.

But you see, this isn't flying runway heading. Runway heading is, "The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number." Now an IFR pilot has this right on his/her approach plate. I believe, don't have one handy, it is also in the AFD for a VFR pilot.

My point is/was that no term "runway heading" exists in the list of commands to a VFR pilot. What this means, to me, is if they say "aircraft xxx runway heading cleared for takeoff" to me flying VFR and I fly a VFR extended centerline, I am perfectly legal. Does anyone interpret that differently?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

But you see, this isn't flying runway heading. Runway heading is, "The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number." Now an IFR pilot has this right on his/her approach plate. I believe, don't have one handy, it is also in the AFD for a VFR pilot.

My point is/was that no term "runway heading" exists in the list of commands to a VFR pilot. What this means, to me, is if they say "aircraft xxx runway heading cleared for takeoff" to me flying VFR and I fly a VFR extended centerline, I am perfectly legal. Does anyone interpret that differently?

If they tell you runway track, you are correct.

At ERAU we had a Letter of Agreement with tower that "Runway Heading" was to be runway track.... we were the only school on the field doing it.

 

[fish314]

Of course! How else would you know where you are? :insane:


Why do you have two different procedures?

-mini

Don't really think of it as a "procedure" per se, or at least not as part of the departure procedure. I think of it as a part of the take-off, touch and go, or landing procedure. As part of my take off, touch and go, or landing, I am trying to maintain runway centerline. I merely abandon trying to maintain runway centerline at DER and 400', or at the point where I lose sight of the runway, whichever occurs first. It's the point I transition from a take-off to a departure, basically, unless something tells me to do it at another point (for example, the KC-135 take-off mode transitions to departure at 2000').

 

[minitour]

But you see, this isn't flying runway heading. Runway heading is, "The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number."

Sorry, but I'm just not good enough to fly heading 244 for runway 24. Well, in our plane it's not hard because there's a digital readout of what the heading bug is exactly set to and it's big enough to actually SEE the difference in one degree (which is also why flying by the AI is so easy), but in something like a Baron or 172 with a "normal size" HSI or DG, I'll set it as close as possible (which is also why I'm primary/supporting in normal piston twins/singles but control/performance in the jet...instrumentation just allows for more precision that way).

In this case (in a light piston twin or single), the little number would match the big number. I just can't tell if it's exactly on 172 or if it's on 171 or 173 in those planes for runway 17. In that case, the closest number is close enough.

If you can fly an exact heading +/-0 you're better than me and I salute you. :hiya:

Don't really think of it as a "procedure" per se, or at least not as part of the departure procedure. I think of it as a part of the take-off, touch and go, or landing procedure. As part of my take off, touch and go, or landing, I am trying to maintain runway centerline. I merely abandon trying to maintain runway centerline at DER and 400', or at the point where I lose sight of the runway, whichever occurs first. It's the point I transition from a take-off to a departure, basically, unless something tells me to do it at another point (for example, the KC-135 take-off mode transitions to departure at 2000').

Fair Enough. :beer:

-mini

 

[nosehair]

As for the 35-100 IFR following the runway, well, I gotta disagree with that. If you are doing a Lower Than Standard t/o, you are essentially IMC on the runway and you have NO forward visibility once you rotate AND are looking "inside." At least I hope that is the case. There is no way to track anything outside.

When you are IMC on the runway, there is no wind to make a difference.
On a runway with a localizer, I always track the localizer until reaching the departure end which I can tell when the loc needle does it's little dance just as you pass over the loc txmter. That is where the departure path starts. That is when I turn to runway heading, or other departure instructions.

 

[minitour]

When you are IMC on the runway, there is no wind to make a difference.

I'll remember that the next time it's VV001 and 1/2 (or less) in +SN when I'm trying to takeoff in a blizzard.

"Remember...there's no wind. That cold blowing sensation on the ramp was all in your head."

-mini

 

[shdw]

Sorry, but I'm just not good enough to fly heading 244 for runway 24.

First paragraph was sarcasm. Pay attention to the second, that one has the point. I guess nobody else has an opinion on if "runway heading" can actually be given to a visual pilot? Sure we have heard it. Unfortunately, hearing it doesn't validate it.

To me this is similar to giving someone instructions to turn right when there is no road to turn onto. How can you command something of a person when that command doesn't exist.

 

[minitour]

First paragraph was sarcasm. Pay attention to the second, that one has the point. I guess nobody else has an opinion on if "runway heading" can actually be given to a visual pilot? Sure we have heard it. Unfortunately, hearing it doesn't validate it.

So you're telling me that when I'm about to depart VFR out of any number of towered airports and I'm told to fly the runway heading....I can say "nah..you can't tell me to do that!"?

-mini

 

[shdw]

So you're telling me that when I'm about to depart VFR out of any number of towered airports and I'm told to fly the runway heading....I can say "nah..you can't tell me to do that!"?

-mini

I am not saying what you can and cannot do. I am trying to gain the concusses on what the pilot, and hopefully ATC, world thinks/knows about this.


Questions like these, and any other comments I can get:

Is there some part of the 7110 I missed?

If a controller says "runway heading" to a VFR guy are they expecting the 7110 definition or a visual departure up centerline?

When you are told fly runway heading and you are VFR, do you take out your AFD and dial in runway heading? or do you just depart centerline?

If we can be given this IFR command, assuming I am right and it doesn't exist as a VFR command, how many other IFR commands should VFR pilots be ready for?

 

[Mike H]

how many other IFR commands should VFR pilots be ready for?

Slow to 200 knots?

 

[Maurus]

If we can be given this IFR command, assuming I am right and it doesn't exist as a VFR command, how many other IFR commands should VFR pilots be ready for?

Wouldn't it just be considered a vector for a VFR pilot? Climb to 500 Ft above the runway and then do the runway heading, simple.

Besides it is easy to do runway heading. Line up on center line and check the heading indicator/mag compass before putting in any throttle. No need to look anything up.

 

[minitour]

Wouldn't it just be considered a vector for a VFR pilot?

Same as it is for a pilot flying IFR?

-mini

 

[nosehair]

I'll remember that the next time it's VV001 and 1/2 (or less) in +SN when I'm trying to takeoff in a blizzard.

..ahh, a blizzard takeoff. Well, you di'int splain it that way. Yeah, I'd go to heading right away, too. You're just as likely to drift one way as the other.

 

[Polar742]

When you are told fly runway heading and you are VFR, do you take out your AFD and dial in runway heading? or do you just depart centerline?

I would venture that knowing the actual heading of the runway would be covered under "stuff you should know during preflight" part of your training.

Next thing you know, they'll be questioning the validity of being issued altitude changes too...