Lowering the Bar for Accepting a Paying Job (A Rant)

[kellwolf]

Did you guys get any monetary gains in the last TA voted down or was it non monetary? Why was it voted down?

Depends on who you ask. Fact is, it wasn't acceptable to a majority of the pilots for various reasons. For me, the reserve rules were the nail in the coffin. That was the first section I read, and they were so terrible that I didn't even have to read the rest of the TA to know how I was gonna vote. My QoL would have been WORSE under the TA than it is under a contract signed over 10 years ago. There were still a lot of loopholes and vague language, and we've already seen in the current agreement how the company exploits that. Some guys voted "no" based on the vague language and loopholes you could drive a truck through. When they nixed the vacation slide option, that did it for a lot of the senior and mid-seniority guys. The pay structure was odd to say the least, and I think some guys weren't comfortable with that. The bonus pay out was yet another huge dilemma. We had some senior guys that would see $30k+ for a bonus while most FOs would see less than $3k. The dual-qualification language was pretty bad, too, and it seemed REALLY rushed. There were no provisions for training, currency or any of the "how to" stuff. It was a "we'll agree to do it and figure it out later" thing, which NEVER goes well here.

As for when we can strike.....that's gonna be a while. Things are movingly quickly from what I hear (at least as quickly as they can in this type of situation). The negotiators have been meeting with the company the past 4 weeks in a row, and they're set up to meet the next 3 weeks in a row as well. Last week is supposed to be with the lawyers to get stuff wrapped up. Things still left on the table are retirement, reserve rules, min days off, scope and a few other ones. My bet is as long as headway is still being made, the NMB is gonna stay hands off.

 

[wheelsup]

If you guys strike you will get what you want. Pinnacle striking is really an awesome move for the rest of the fee for departure commuters and sets the tone for negotiations for years to come with other companies.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I know I've certainly had opinions on the subject in the past.

I have to say that while standing up for the ideals of 'bettering the profession' are certainly worth considering, there are other factors in play.

When it comes down to accepting a job that's maybe less than ideal in that regard and say, eating, I'd imagine that eating would take a higher priority, as it should.

So you take the job, with the knowledge that maybe it's not really 'voting with your feet' in regards to the rest of the industry.

Therein lies the question- are you really only interested in economic pressure? Does saying that you're willing to fight for the betterment of the process really stand up if you simply follow the status quo of such a place?

It would seem to me that there is potential for the two places to exist, but a certain degree of restraint would be required.

How do you balance this motivation when the change to move up occurs?
Sure, you've plugged along for a few years and done what you could to improve things, but if the time comes to move up again- do simply say "I did what I could" and move on? Things don't pay so well in certain aspects of the industry, after all, so clearly 'voting with your feet' seems like a good time then, too. Maybe the new baby on the way makes the economics make more sense. So hey, now you're back to 'economic pressures'. No time for 'bettering the industry'. C'est la vie.


It's a hard decision, I suppose. My personal circumstances have allowed me to be a bit more hardened to the individual factors that others may consider in that sort of thing. I remember a certain individual who used to become rather vitriolic about labor issues. I remember thinking that often his defense of the issues at hand seemed obviously steeped in self interest. I must confess that I too, have probably been guilty of the same in some of the things I have said here.

That's not really a good place to find one's self.

Everybody's got an opinion, I suppose. I read one that Buddha said that "People with opinions tend to go around bothering each other with them."

Are we really discussing opinions, or just feelings?

A difficult choice for all, I suppose. To each their own.

 

[kellwolf]

If you guys strike you will get what you want. Pinnacle striking is really an awesome move for the rest of the fee for departure commuters and sets the tone for negotiations for years to come with other companies.

I honestly don't think it'll come to that. One side or the other will fold in the 30 day cooling off period, and it really depends on what items are left on the table. I'm cautiously optimistic about what's coming out of the intense talks that have been going on for over a month. I know the list of things they e-mailed out is a LOT smaller than the list of things talked about a month ago.

 

[L-16B]

I agree with pretty much everything the original poster said, but what came to mind is what did I know when I got hired? My dad was a pilot, and pretty much all of his friends are pilots (airline, military, and private). I can tell you when I got hired, I thought, hey I want to live in Houston. Ok no prob, 2 airlines to pick from. Expressjet and Colgan. It was Jan 08, so Colgan it was. Even if Expressjet was hiring I would have gone to Colgan anyway, per recomendations from my dad's friends.

I wouldn't trade my job with any other regional out there, no way no how. I'm going to be top 10 on the FO side come this summer based at home with a good quality of life. I'd be furloughed or on reserve at any other airline, and I've never sat a day of reserve at colgan. But my point is, what did I know when I was applying? Did I know if it was union or not union? Nope, not a clue. Did I know the pay rates? I had glanced at them but I didn't have a clue how that would translate into a paycheck. I knew that I was told that Colgan would give me a good career progression and quality of life as I can be based where I live.

With that being said, I am on an Alpa committee and am trying to leave it better than I found it...

 

[Socal321]

I honestly don't think it'll come to that. One side or the other will fold in the 30 day cooling off period, and it really depends on what items are left on the table. I'm cautiously optimistic about what's coming out of the intense talks that have been going on for over a month. I know the list of things they e-mailed out is a LOT smaller than the list of things talked about a month ago.

I hope you guys set an industry standard. With all the negotiations going on right now and with upcoming contracts we all need a new benchmark. We're not getting it from Skywest or Republic, maybe we can get one from an ALPA carrier.

 

[SoCalAprch]

I agree with pretty much everything the original poster said, but what came to mind is what did I know when I got hired? My dad was a pilot, and pretty much all of his friends are pilots (airline, military, and private). I can tell you when I got hired, I thought, hey I want to live in Houston. Ok no prob, 2 airlines to pick from. Expressjet and Colgan. It was Jan 08, so Colgan it was. Even if Expressjet was hiring I would have gone to Colgan anyway, per recomendations from my dad's friends.

I wouldn't trade my job with any other regional out there, no way no how. I'm going to be top 10 on the FO side come this summer based at home with a good quality of life. I'd be furloughed or on reserve at any other airline, and I've never sat a day of reserve at colgan. But my point is, what did I know when I was applying? Did I know if it was union or not union? Nope, not a clue. Did I know the pay rates? I had glanced at them but I didn't have a clue how that would translate into a paycheck. I knew that I was told that Colgan would give me a good career progression and quality of life as I can be based where I live.

With that being said, I am on an Alpa committee and am trying to leave it better than I found it...

Good for you I :clap: your decision. If I would have gone to Xjet or Comair I would be furloughed as well. We all made our decisions on where to go for one reason or another and it worked out well for some and it ended up sucking for others.

 

[SoCalAprch]

I hope you guys set an industry standard. With all the negotiations going on right now and with upcoming contracts we all need a new benchmark. We're not getting it from Skywest or Republic, maybe we can get one from an ALPA carrier.

LOL Remember that PCL has been in negotiations for 5 years or so. Republic only 2. But since its ALPA its ok. If the IBT were taking this long it would be another "how terrible the IBT is thread."

 

[Socal321]

LOL Remember that PCL has been in negotiations for 5 years or so. Republic only 2."

That doesn't mean much. It all depends on what the company gives you and if you approve based on how strong their koolaid is.

I know you have to defend your company.... but it is what it is. Prove all of us wrong. This is just one persons opinion but the koolaide there has been a little strong for a while now with all the expansions. I still can't believe they wouldn't at least give a temporary pay bump for the FOs and the proposal was only a couple of percentages more, that's all you need to know about your managements intentions. Good luck.

 

[CRJDriver]

I was thinking about this thread subject the past few days, and I have realized it doesn't matter what you do or where you work in this industry, you just can't win!!! Nobody is every going to be happy, and you'll always be lowering the bar or be called scum by someone, either for the airline you work, the wages you accept, the plane you fly, the uniform you wear, etc. Can anyone actually win in this screwed up industry?

 

[SoCalAprch]

That doesn't mean much. It all depends on what the company gives you and if you approve based on how strong their koolaid is.

I know you have to defend your company.... but it is what it is. Prove all of us wrong. This is just one persons opinion but the koolaide there has been a little strong for a while now with all the expansions. I still can't believe they wouldn't at least give a temporary pay bump for the FOs and the proposal was only a couple of percentages more, that's all you need to know about your managements intentions. Good luck.

Don't think that just because I want our company to be successful that I'm somehow sympathetic to management's tactics or am ok with the way they treat and pay us. And as far as koolaid drinking, I think most here are more worried about their jobs now than they were when we were just a normal fee for departure regional. History shows that the chances of something like this working are somewhat slim. Also I'm about to top out at $37 an hour. So I was really hoping that the company would let the extensions pass. But what do you expect us to do? Quit because management didn't pass a pay extension for FOs? Unfortunately the RLA makes it seem like we have one hand tied behind our back in our fight against management. Pinnacle's management comes from the same blood as Republics and don't think they are going to give us anything for free when they can just drag this worthless contract out another 5 years. I'll also be the first one to tell you that our Union could be doing much more. They need to get vocal and start letting the public know just how awful the company has been treating us and the guys over at Midwest. They put out a press release a while back about our punitive sick call policy and it really hit the company where it counted. That press release is the reason that they said there would be no pay extensions. Now if thats true or not who knows but it definitely got someones attention over in Indy.

 

[Socal321]

Can anyone actually win in this screwed up industry?

Being happy in this industry is based on complete luck. No one person is better than the other guy, they just happened to be at the right spot at the right time. I guess that's why they say it's screwed up.

 

[Socal321]

Unfortunately the RLA makes it seem like we have one hand tied behind our back in our fight against management. Pinnacle's management comes from the same blood as Republics and don't think they are going to give us anything for free when they can just drag this worthless contract out another 5 years.

It seems like your company is taking a shift from fee for departure and going into it's own business. That will no doubt make it hard on negotiations since even the company doesn't know what the future will bring. You guys can go with the company and help them out like Mesa pilots did for JO in the last TA, or you can go for something that you actually deserve. I think the most important thing that you guys need get out of the next contract is industry average pay for your E190s.

 

[L-16B]

I was thinking about this thread subject the past few days, and I have realized it doesn't matter what you do or where you work in this industry, you just can't win!!! Nobody is every going to be happy, and you'll always be lowering the bar or be called scum by someone, either for the airline you work, the wages you accept, the plane you fly, the uniform you wear, etc. Can anyone actually win in this screwed up industry?[/

Yes, management and their bonuses even when the company loses money and pilots on furlough!

 

[jynxyjoe]

LOL Remember that PCL has been in negotiations for 5 years or so. Republic only 2. But since its ALPA its ok. If the IBT were taking this long it would be another "how terrible the IBT is thread."

I do agree some ALPA pilots use any chance they get to knock the IBT. However when one of those threads come up you'd simply have to say, "hey it's the NMB" and so forth and people are either come to accept facts or not.

I don't know if whining about hypothetical threads change anyones perspective anyway. You are always gonna have a few knuckleheads beating up on IBT and the rest of us just watch and try to figure out where the truth is.

 

[SoCalAprch]

It seems like your company is taking a shift from fee for departure and going into it's own business. That will no doubt make it hard on negotiations since even the company doesn't know what the future will bring. You guys can go with the company and help them out like Mesa pilots did for JO in the last TA, or you can go for something that you actually deserve. I think the most important thing that you guys need get out of the next contract is industry average pay for your E190s.

I agree with everything you are saying here and I think most of the RAH pilots do as well. I don't think we are going to roll over and sign a sub par TA. I don't know why people think we will... Everything I have been hearing out on the line makes me believe we are up for the fight. Im gonna guess and say that this is the first contract for more than 80% of this pilot group and most realize that it isn't the get my time and get out place anymore. Things have changed and we realize it but people are passing judgement on us and nothing has even been presented to us. I'd wager that it will still be 2+ years until we have anything to vote on. Now if my logic, not what I want, just what I think, is correct it will be a good increase in pay and QOL but the pay scales won't be JBlue or higher. If I had to guess I'd say $10 or $15 an hour less than the Jet Blue 190 rates. Just to reiterate this isn't what I want or think we deserve but life has taught me to expect the worst, fight for the best, and 99% of the time something in between happens...

 

[kellwolf]

LOL Remember that PCL has been in negotiations for 5 years or so. Republic only 2. But since its ALPA its ok. If the IBT were taking this long it would be another "how terrible the IBT is thread."

I don't think that's what he was getting at. The last ALPA group to sign a contract didn't really do all that hot as far as upping the bar. WAY too many loopholes, and one of them was NEARLY exploited by management. Or was it? Did Mesa lose a lot of contract gains when they killed PBS or did management come to their senses? I know the contract allowed for them to roll a lot back, but the battle cry was "Management WANTS PBS" so it was okay. Other than ASA, there really hasn't been any other ALPA groups contributing to "jacking up the house" lately. If our TA had passed last year, our little corner would have still be sagging, too.

If RAH guns for what they (and we as an industry) need, expect it to be at LEAST another 3 years of negotiations unless something drastic changes. You'll be in direct negotiations for a bout a year, file for mediation with the NMB, go through mediated talks for a while, stall out, wait, more mediated talks, and if you're LUCKY get a proffer of arbitration and a potential cooling-off period. Makes no difference what union it is, it's the way the RLA is set up. In the meantime, management pays their "mainline" FOs and CAs regional wages on the 190 and cashes their bonus checks. Worse.....they may toss out a decent pay raise at the expense of scheduling and QoL rules just to get some of the SJSers to clamor for a TA to be sent to a vote. We've already got our fair share of "I've lost $XXX because the TA didn't pass" guys over here, so I can only imagine what it would be like if someone was looking at a fair wage on the 190 compared to what's at RAH now.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

The Mesa MEC had to agree to settle a grievance that would have cost Mesa management beaucoup dollars in order to get them from axing PBS (along with all the contract gains.) Specifically, the Mesa MEC interpretation of the way the block or better provision in the Mesa contract was worded was that the block or better pay segments would be above guarantee for reserve pilots (for example, scheduled for 1 hour, but blocked 1.5 hrs, then .5 hrs would be added on top of guarantee if you were below it.)

I think Mesa management probably realized that this was the correct interpretation considering they went to the extreme of cancelling PBS because of it, rather than have it go to arbirtation. (Cancelling PBS before a year was up would have killed the BorB portion of the contract.)

The MEC had to agree to settle this in the company's favor, so that the block or better language functions in a similar way to that of most other airlines where it is not added on top of your guarantee. They didn't want to, but if they didn't they would have lost the block or better portion of the contract anyway.

 

[Cruise]

Can anyone actually win in this screwed up industry?

Highly unlikely!

 

[Cruise]

Yes, management and their bonuses even when the company loses money and pilots on furlough!

Hmmm, good point. Okay, only the scum that floats to the top can win. Otherwise, NO...not gonna happen......but I'm gonna work as hard as possible to see that my prediction is WRONG.