Lowering the Bar for Accepting a Paying Job (A Rant)

jhugz

jhugz

Well-Known Member
My opinions of the industry are always changing influenced by many on this board. I learn a whole lot from reading this forum and the active 121'ers on it. After reading through a mess of Colgan gouges about lowering the industry and how no one should ever take a job there I got to thinking.

The only way these companies got away with these shenanigans for so long is because everyone views the jobs as the bottom of the barrel, stepping stone gigs. Maybe that there is the problem. These jobs should not be viewed as stepping stones to a major. These jobs should be looked at like careers. By throwing around the bottom of the barrel bomb you create an image to many up and comers that nothing can be done at these jobs. You go there to build your time and get out.

I here a lot of pilots shooting off at the mouth saying how the would never go to this airline or the other due to QoL or pay. Lets face it they are all pretty bad. The only thing you can do is change it from within. By accepting a job at Colgan or CommutAir or Lakes you are only lowering the bar if you plan to do nothing about your work conditions. If you plan to go to work, become an active volunteer with your union (no matter which one) you are taking a step in the right direction. You are helping to better the industry for generations behind you. The only way this industry can be saved is by raising the bar as a collective work force.

Regardless :beer: to all busting their asses for better work rules. If I ever get the opportunity to join the 121 work force and don't contribute my time to the cause, I hope someone here will give me a swift kick in the pants.

Anywhoo...back to the fridge. Figure I would post this before it looked like my sig line.

(This rant isn't meant to be preachy and wasn't even because of something I saw on this board...Take I guess what board I have been moonlighting though?)
 
One question to challenge this theory (not attack it): Wouldn't people eagerly wanting to leave these "entry level" jobs incur companies to want to increase incentive to stay? I can't imagine training new hires is cheap.
 
mikecweb said:
Are you trying to justify you applying to the above airlines?
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Maybe...IDK. Applied for CommutAir a long while back. Lakes did before my job. Haven't at the Colgan. However I can't justify taking a 12k pay cut right now.
 
jhugz said:
The only way these companies got away with these shenanigans for so long is because everyone views the jobs as the bottom of the barrel, stepping stone gigs.
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Agreed to a large extent. Add to the fact that most pilots plan on leaving in a couple years and you have the makings of weak unions at those airlines. Weak unions mean weak contracts.

Ask a Legacy pilot where he/she wants to be in 5 years and they'll say "In the left seat", "flying the Boeing XXX" or something similar. Ask a regional pilot the same question and most will answer "Anywhere but here". They'll also add "Oh yeah, don't bother me with all the union crap. I don't plan on being here long enough to vote on the next contract. Do what you want, I have a log book to update."

The problem is that five years later they're still at the same airline living under a crappy contract and complaining about it after the fact.

The current state of the industry is that the legacies are shrinking and the regionals are growing. Both DAL and UAL have about 30-50% of their domestic flying outsourced to regionals in order to compete with the LCC's and other legacies. When the shrinking and consolidation of the legacies is complete in another 5-10 years, there will be more regional pilots competing for fewer jobs. This will not change even when the massive retirements everyone is talking about kick in over the next few years.

Secondly, due to the lost of pay, benefits and defined pension plans at many of the legacies plus the increasing improvement of the same at the regionals, many pilots will be faced with asking themselves if they are willing to leave a $100K job to start over at a legacy for $35K.

Regardless of what other people think, I like my job and I don't plan on leaving it until forced to do so. I'm 54 and this is a secondary/post-military career. I've been at my airline for over 19 years and am happy to stick with it for another 11 years.

Regardless of your career choice, my humble recommendation is to live your life with no regrets and don't GAS about what other people think. Advice is one thing, but their snooty opinions are another. :pirate:
 
I'd disagree, I think the problem is actually further down than that.

If flight instructing paid more, and it never has and never will, then folks would not continue to look at the regionals as a huge step up.

Take me for instance. When I was flight instructing, I was clearing around $1,000 a month. Was that typical? Yes and no. I'd say that $1,000 a month was average for me when you considered that sometimes we worked 16 hour days for weeks straight, and other times we didn't work at all.

So take a place like Mesa or Colgan. Even if you increase your pay by $500 a month, you're making a 1/3 increase over what you're making while flight instructing. That's huge! Additionally, you've finally got health insurance, which if you're like me and have some health problems, is huge. Then you're flying at a part 121 carrier which is not only safer than flight instructing, it's "better quality time."

Frankly everything about a regional is a HUGE net positive over *most* flight instructing/banner tow/sky diving gigs. HUGE HUGE HUGE. So it's no wonder people want to get up and out as quickly as possible.

I loved teaching, and I'm glad I was able to continue doing it at Amflight when I stopped doing part 61 flight instruction, but I'm also glad I easily trippeled my pay in the process. At the time I would have taken a job at Mesa just to get health insurance, something I wasn't going to get while I was flight instructing.

Now was this Skymates fault? No, not at all. The margins are RAZOR THIN for most flight schools, and most of them can't afford to pay any more than they are. It just is what it is, and we shouldn't necessarily hold it against flight school owners. But with that, we should understand that people take these jobs because in many cases they're doubling their pay in doing to a regional.

Some flight instructors make more, and I'm happy for them that they don't have to bug out as soon as they realize they have bills to pay, but most don't, and most get out as soon as possible.

Or said another way, I think these academic discussions of "THE HORRIBLE REGIONALS!" are stupid. People make economic decisions, not high and mighty decisions. If you're in an economic position to consider higher causes (I was, and I'm happy I had that opportunity) then that's great! But if you're not making enough scratch to put food in the table, ideas such as "If I go to this regional, I'll drag down the industry" go out the window.
 
Kestrel452 said:
One question to challenge this theory (not attack it): Wouldn't people eagerly wanting to leave these "entry level" jobs incur companies to want to increase incentive to stay? I can't imagine training new hires is cheap.
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When I was at XJT I know that it was cheaper for the company if a pilot left after six years.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'd disagree, I think the problem is actually further down than that.

If flight instructing paid more, and it never has and never will, then folks would not continue to look at the regionals as a huge step up.

Take me for instance. When I was flight instructing, I was clearing around $1,000 a month. Was that typical? Yes and no. I'd say that $1,000 a month was average for me when you considered that sometimes we worked 16 hour days for weeks straight, and other times we didn't work at all.

So take a place like Mesa or Colgan. Even if you increase your pay by $500 a month, you're making a 1/3 increase over what you're making while flight instructing. That's huge! Additionally, you've finally got health insurance, which if you're like me and have some health problems, is huge. Then you're flying at a part 121 carrier which is not only safer than flight instructing, it's "better quality time."

Frankly everything about a regional is a HUGE net positive over *most* flight instructing/banner tow/sky diving gigs. HUGE HUGE HUGE. So it's no wonder people want to get up and out as quickly as possible.

I loved teaching, and I'm glad I was able to continue doing it at Amflight when I stopped doing part 61 flight instruction, but I'm also glad I easily trippeled my pay in the process. At the time I would have taken a job at Mesa just to get health insurance, something I wasn't going to get while I was flight instructing.

Now was this Skymates fault? No, not at all. The margins are RAZOR THIN for most flight schools, and most of them can't afford to pay any more than they are. It just is what it is, and we shouldn't necessarily hold it against flight school owners. But with that, we should understand that people take these jobs because in many cases they're doubling their pay in doing to a regional.

Some flight instructors make more, and I'm happy for them that they don't have to bug out as soon as they realize they have bills to pay, but most don't, and most get out as soon as possible.

Or said another way, I think these academic discussions of "THE HORRIBLE REGIONALS!" are stupid. People make economic decisions, not high and mighty decisions. If you're in an economic position to consider higher causes (I was, and I'm happy I had that opportunity) then that's great! But if you're not making enough scratch to put food in the table, ideas such as "If I go to this regional, I'll drag down the industry" go out the window.
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Everything you said is completely true. It all comes down to and sometimes it is unfortunate but it all comes down to you have to do what you have to do to survive and further your career. I am going to one of these companies and I am very very very happy about that. I look forward to making the most of it. I may stay there for 20yrs or I may stay there for only a few only time will tell. That being said I will make the most of the time I will spend there. I have taken a few interviews over the last few months and I decided on the company that has the best people and atmosphere. These are truly people I want to work with.
So I am agreeing with the poster and the above. You have to do what you have to do in order to make your way in life. I agree the pay should be better and I agree that it probably wont change but I look forward to getting involved and making a difference no matter how slight. When I go to a new company I always go in looking for what I can do to represent that company and in turn myself the best way I can.
 
John,

I'm a firm believer that this industry needs to be overhauled from the top (majors)to bottom (CFI, Banner Towing, ETC.) or bottom to top, not from the middle (Regionals). There obviously should be a pay increase and bennies increase when you jump to that Regional gig however a jump up to 20k is laughable. It just shows the state of the industry.

Devils advocate though, we have guys here making 50K a year as a couple year flight instructor with the company. I know that this isn't the norm through out the industry but people unload from this gig daily to take a 50% pay cut to go fly the shiny jet w/ well past ATP times. I have come to the conclusion that it will always be that way. We can not fix the industry by saying we would not take a job at "these" companies and eventually when this so called pilot shortage comes about pay, work rules, and QoL will magically increase due to the shortage. The only way to fix these problems is to work within the company and try and raise the bar together. If this magically pilot shortage actual happens and the union is strong, well then you have the company by the balls.
 
I'm not really positive we're going to ever end up in economic conditions that would allow this to happen, mostly because contracts are only renewed every so many years. If you don't have the company pressed against the wall right then, you'll get nothing done.

Look at XJT, when's the contract come up? A year or two? Republic? Right now. How are these companies supposed to get a better contract in these economic conditions?

I hate to say that we'll never have positive change in this industry, but with mainline giving away the amount of scope that they have already, I'm not convinced that conditions are EVER going to be ripe for fixing what we've screwed up.
 
One step in the right direction is for people to stop chasing the upgrade time. Most folks went to Colgan, CommutAir, etc. purely for the fast upgrade time and the "in-and-out" mentality and the "I'll just put up with the crappy pay and QOL for a few years and then I'll move on". Nothing ever got improved, it got worse. Now the economy sucks, majors aren't hiring, upgrade times are increasing and there is no movement. Now all of the sudden something has to be done about it, and both companies voted in ALPA.

One thing I learned is to never pick an airline based on upgrade time or bases, because it can change on a daily basis.

Obviously there are other factors when choosing an airline, but again, most people right now want the Turbine or 121 time, so it is more important to them than the ridiculous training contract, the $21/hr pay, no block or better, no deadhead pay, etc.
 
You don't go to a commuter or even a major for the new-hire 1st year pay. You go for the career advancement and pay 3, 4, 5, 10, 15+ years down the road.

I made more money instructing as well vs. new hire first year pay but 4 years later I sure am glad I left instructing and came to a commuter. Hell 1 day later I was glad I left.
 
Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where folks with a family to take care of will ever be hard pressed to even take a job with a flight school or regional due to pay. I work 2 jobs, bring home maybe 35K before taxes, so moving up to even Republic I'd be taking a pay cut and would probably see my wife and daughter less than I do now. Add on to that the higher minimums needed (Which I agree with btw) and the aspirations of 5 years ago get sucked out the window. As it is, the system is not setup to foster new, young pilots with at least half a brain on their heads to understand exactly what they're getting themselves into.
 
ozziecat35 said:
Unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where folks with a family to take care of will ever be hard pressed to even take a job with a flight school or regional due to pay. I work 2 jobs, bring home maybe 35K before taxes, so moving up to even Republic I'd be taking a pay cut and would probably see my wife and daughter less than I do now. Add on to that the higher minimums needed (Which I agree with btw) and the aspirations of 5 years ago get sucked out the window. As it is, the system is not setup to foster new, young pilots with at least half a brain on their heads to understand exactly what they're getting themselves into.
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Your argument is the same people leaving high school make about not going to college. They get a comfortable $15/hr job out of high school and think they are set.
 
jtrain609 said:
Look at XJT, when's the contract come up? A year or two? Republic? Right now. How are these companies supposed to get a better contract in these economic conditions?
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I'll toss another one out there. Pinnacle has been in negotiations so long, we've seen economic conditions change....twice. The way the RLA is structured, there's not a whole lot of incentive in a down economy for management to give. Some will argue that with the new NMB things will change, and I hope that's true. It's been almost a year since the new NMB took over, and I really haven't seen anything other than a crappy TA that should really have never made it to the pilot group. From what I hear, things are going "well" at the negotiating table, but I've been hearing "We're THIS close to getting a deal" since I stepped on property in March of 06. My wife has gotten to the point where she doesn't even want to hear the words "contract negotiations" because of false hopes being smashed against the wall multiple times in the past.
 
kellwolf said:
I'll toss another one out there. Pinnacle has been in negotiations so long, we've seen economic conditions change....twice. The way the RLA is structured, there's not a whole lot of incentive in a down economy for management to give. Some will argue that with the new NMB things will change, and I hope that's true. It's been almost a year since the new NMB took over, and I really haven't seen anything other than a crappy TA that should really have never made it to the pilot group. From what I hear, things are going "well" at the negotiating table, but I've been hearing "We're THIS close to getting a deal" since I stepped on property in March of 06. My wife has gotten to the point where she doesn't even want to hear the words "contract negotiations" because of false hopes being smashed against the wall multiple times in the past.
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When the hell are you guys finally going to be able to strike?
 
wheelsup said:
You don't go to a commuter or even a major for the new-hire 1st year pay. You go for the career advancement and pay 3, 4, 5, 10, 15+ years down the road.

I made more money instructing as well vs. new hire first year pay but 4 years later I sure am glad I left instructing and came to a commuter. Hell 1 day later I was glad I left.
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That's not rocket science. The problem is that the career advancement and pay 3 4 10 15 years later is becoming abysmal due to the fact that the industry is completely messed up top to bottom, side to side.
 
kellwolf said:
I'll toss another one out there. Pinnacle has been in negotiations so long, we've seen economic conditions change....twice. The way the RLA is structured, there's not a whole lot of incentive in a down economy for management to give. Some will argue that with the new NMB things will change, and I hope that's true. It's been almost a year since the new NMB took over, and I really haven't seen anything other than a crappy TA that should really have never made it to the pilot group. From what I hear, things are going "well" at the negotiating table, but I've been hearing "We're THIS close to getting a deal" since I stepped on property in March of 06. My wife has gotten to the point where she doesn't even want to hear the words "contract negotiations" because of false hopes being smashed against the wall multiple times in the past.
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Did you guys get any monetary gains in the last TA voted down or was it non monetary? Why was it voted down?
 
Socal321 said:
That's not rocket science. The problem is that the career advancement and pay 3 4 10 15 years later is becoming abysmal due to the fact that the industry is completely messed up top to bottom, side to side.
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Still beats working 2 jobs to clear $35k. Second year pay here is $37/hr or around $40k and even if on reserve you are guaranteed 12 days off a month. Good health benefits and retirement matching.
 
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