Lost Comm
- Thread starter dahhcon
- Start date
Ian_J
Hubschrauber Flieger
Maybe BEFORE you got promoted.Nine PLUS!!!
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Three times so far. Two full electrical, same plane three days apart; one VMC the other IMC. The most unexpected thing for me was that we lost VOX, which makes perfect sense. I guess I took VOX for granted.
The other was an a com problem. The radio was transmitting by itself at a rapid clicking pace that was blocking towers freq with static. It suddenly stopped and worked fine just long enough to hear tower tell us to land if we could hear them. Then it started again.
But by the quick thinking of the controllers we only needed the light guns once.
I personally think lost coms is rare, and a lot of the build up about it is left over from a time when the equipment was not as dependable and static wicks were novel.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
norcalpilot25
Well-Known Member
Ive had two complete electrical failures, luckily VFR both times (two bad voltage regulators) one resulted in smoke in the cockpit as it fried NAV/COM 2. And I have had a Cessna ARC 300 radio go out on me, both the NAV and COM sides. Im with fish314 on this one. Get to the IAF as close as possible to the ETA and shoot the approach. Then there is the whole deal with flying to the clearance limit FIRST if your clearance limit is not a fix from which the approach begins, so if your clearance limit is the airport does ATC really expect you to fly to the airport first, then fly to an IAF and THEN shoot the approach?
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Figured it was something like that. I myself have never been guilty of skimming.
In other news... it appears we have quite the tally-whacker measuring contest going on in this thread!
"Our amps go to 11"
ATCtexas
Well-Known Member
Here's my opinion on all this. I work in a Class C approach and we normally get a center handoff about 50-60 miles from the airport. I get a strip of all IFR flights (and VFR flt following) 30 minutes before they cross my airspace which is 40 miles from the airport. I would NOT expect an aircraft to go hold anywhere. I would expect an approach to be made. If I saw an aircraft go into holding I would think "What the hell are they doing?!" This would also screw with sequencing other aircraft because I wouldn't know when the NORDO would start their approach. We don't get an ETA for the airport, only the time when the aircraft will cross into the airspace. The strip will show the something to the effect of 092/40 so I know the aircraft will be at that point from the airport at the time on the strip. As for no transponder, I will see a primary target as long as it is above the MVA at least 30 miles from the airport, beyond that it's hit or miss at low altitudes. I can click on any primary target to get an airspeed (even birds). If it is over 100 knots I assume it is an aircraft so I can seperate other traffic from it. I hope this makes some sense. My point in everything is I would want you to go right to the approach, don't go into holding!
tykrtr
Well-Known Member
We controllers may want an aircraft to go ahead with the approach and get it over with (since I'm sure we're blocknig the airspace anyway), but we pilots have pesky things we should attempt to comply with as well (darn 91.185). Be careful recommending courses of action that don't comply with FARs, just try to block the airspace for as long as it takes us PICs to get the stricken aircraft on the ground. It'll be the PIC gettnig the nastygram from the FAA when he didn't comply with 91 (or insert appropriate chapter and verse here).
Yes, I've been on both ends of the nonfunctioning lost comm mic -- so to speak. I've even seen a pilot return to his departure airport after losing electrical power because he deemed that was the most appropriate action in night icing conditions. You're also correct that we don't really know what the ETA is for the aircraft (don't forget to ask for that when you try to call LockMart flight service <-- and good luck with getting someone who can find that information there). Bottom line, be flexible and block as much as you can if you can't see a target. We pesky pilots are apt to do just about anything to get back to terra firma...
PS: Thanks for getting this thread back on topic...
ATCtexas
Well-Known Member
This is strictly my opinion on what I would want. I understand that pilots have regs to follow (I am a pilot too), this is just from a controller point of view. If an emergency is declared those regs go out the window as far as I'm concerned. Again, this is my opinion.
There is one other reason the FAA wants you to arrive close to your ETA. First, you have to cross multiple position reporting points (w/ only lost comm, you're supposed to transmit your position in the blind, you don't know if ATC can or cannot hear you - unless you have a dead alternator and battery).
What if there is another plane norad, or even w/ lost comm? They want you at the speed you indicated on your flight plan, so there would be no collision en route, or in the terminal area. Well, the chances of this happening in real life are slim, and sticking to your airspeed and times is something I am not usually concerned with in a radar environment, but the intention behind the regulation is to avoid such situations.
Also, I should note that I have lost comms in VFR, with all the electric equipment working fine. It's not an emergency per se, that is why you sqwak 7600 and not 7700. It can become an emergency if you lose power altogether.
What if there is another plane norad, or even w/ lost comm? They want you at the speed you indicated on your flight plan, so there would be no collision en route, or in the terminal area. Well, the chances of this happening in real life are slim, and sticking to your airspeed and times is something I am not usually concerned with in a radar environment, but the intention behind the regulation is to avoid such situations.
Also, I should note that I have lost comms in VFR, with all the electric equipment working fine. It's not an emergency per se, that is why you sqwak 7600 and not 7700. It can become an emergency if you lose power altogether.
twdeckard
New Member
I believe this was a response to my posting. I actually did suggest a change to the FARs specific to this procedure, we'll see if its adopted.
I will detail my thinking: in one scenario I've lost communication only; either mis-setting the radio, a malfunction limited to the radio, or perhaps an iced up antenna. I have lost send and receive (or else I might still enjoy receive-only instructions over the VOR).
ATC is tracking my 7600. Cannot be absolutely certain they are observing me but I see the transponder reply annunciator winking. I don't have a radio so for some portion of the flight I have been blind to weather updates. I think the navigation portion of the system is working, I can probably verify the VOR enroute but won't know if I have 108-111 until I can get situated on an approach, get consistent needle presentation and no flag. I am going to be awfully uncomfortable squandering my fuel in a hold. If I cannot connsumate the approach or I find out I don't have precision guidance I've wasted a lot of time while the engine turns and the weather deteriorates.
Still, If I were *absolutely* certain that its *only* my vox and for some bizarre luck I've beaten my ETA by any margin I would hold until I would cross the inbound fix at or after my filed or amended arrival time.
But what if its a more severe problem that includes my electrical capability. Perhaps I have my transponder off as I am desparately trying to conserve power for the ILS. Now at best ATC is following my lima bean with a shrimp boat and I presume simply sterilizing my intended destination until I have landed. No way am I going to hold.
Practically speaking; I never beat my ETE, and frankly I have never updated one while in flight. So I cannot imagine getting somewhere and having to hold and I'm not going to split seconds on the Big Pilot Watch if its close. I also have a handheld and two independent comm radio's. So unless its static or icing the only reason I am going to lose communications is the all up electrical failure. And in that case holding is folly.
Again, I am eager to hear a perspective from the ground. I did have a controller friend offer that they are not going to sequence airplanes into an airport while a nordo cessna orbits nearby becuase they cannot be certain your good for another four minute lap. They don't know what your watch says, they don't know if your situation might deteriorate suddenly, so they shut down until your parked.
twdeckard
New Member
I agree, in fact your post is more articulate than mine. I understand the regulations and am an eagle scout rule monger, however, if its low ifr and the airplane is coming unsprung -- 91.3 has nothing to do with telling someone you have an emergency. I wrote up an essay as part of an NPRM session suggesting this be revisited but the solicitation was for "un-necessary regulations" like the VOR 30 day check and so I am not sure my diatribe was appropriate.
Todd
twdeckard
New Member
Ahh this was the kind of response I was curious for. I (fortunately) missed the second page of the thread when I jumped back in. Thanks.
Sunburn
Well-Known Member
(from the FAR 2006, I know it is outdated, but it is the only one I brought with my to OKC)
91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.
(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR condition are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:
(1) Route:
(i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the ventor clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advisted may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan
(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii)The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
(3)Leave clearance limit.
(i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
I know, lenghty, but I felt it necessary to trascribe the reference. Now to answer a few questions, in my interruptation of the CFR and my, albeit limited, knowledge of the ATC system.
1. ETA/ETE v. PTD/ADT/TOF
Ok, Estimated Time of Arrival, is calculated by: Actual Departure Time (ADT)+ Estimated Time En Route (ETE) [calculated using your filed airspeed or your last assigned airspeed {That dreaded maintain 500kts/Mach .82 for spacing will cause the center to recaluate your time automatically, if the controller is on the ball and gets FD to input it into the system (not sure were this falls into Center controller's/flight data's priorities)}]. So for clarification, ADT+ETE=ETA.
If you have reported a fix, other than your departure airport, i.e. COLIN intersection, MKC, PDZ26025 etc. your ETA is calculated from the time you reported, or radar showed your reaching that fix, (TOF) buy adding the ETE to your TOF. ETE+TOF=ETA
Well what if I am departing IFR from an airport that doesn't have the ablity to pass on my ADT, do to a laundry list of reasons.
They have to use my Proposed Time of Departure (PTD) and will figure my ETA accordingly. PTD+ETE=ETA.
As far as the .65 gives, granted I only skimmed the index, Lost Comm/NORDO aircraft, it refers controllers back to the AIM and 14 CFR Part 91.
91.185 IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each pilot who has two-way radio communications failure when operating under IFR shall comply with the rules of this section.
(b) VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR condition are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
(c) IFR conditions. If the failure occurs in IFR conditions, or if paragraph (b) of this section cannot be complied with, each pilot shall continue the flight according to the following:
(1) Route:
(i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the ventor clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advisted may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan
(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii)The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
(3)Leave clearance limit.
(i) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
(ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
I know, lenghty, but I felt it necessary to trascribe the reference. Now to answer a few questions, in my interruptation of the CFR and my, albeit limited, knowledge of the ATC system.
1. ETA/ETE v. PTD/ADT/TOF
Ok, Estimated Time of Arrival, is calculated by: Actual Departure Time (ADT)+ Estimated Time En Route (ETE) [calculated using your filed airspeed or your last assigned airspeed {That dreaded maintain 500kts/Mach .82 for spacing will cause the center to recaluate your time automatically, if the controller is on the ball and gets FD to input it into the system (not sure were this falls into Center controller's/flight data's priorities)}]. So for clarification, ADT+ETE=ETA.
If you have reported a fix, other than your departure airport, i.e. COLIN intersection, MKC, PDZ26025 etc. your ETA is calculated from the time you reported, or radar showed your reaching that fix, (TOF) buy adding the ETE to your TOF. ETE+TOF=ETA
Well what if I am departing IFR from an airport that doesn't have the ablity to pass on my ADT, do to a laundry list of reasons.
They have to use my Proposed Time of Departure (PTD) and will figure my ETA accordingly. PTD+ETE=ETA.
As far as the .65 gives, granted I only skimmed the index, Lost Comm/NORDO aircraft, it refers controllers back to the AIM and 14 CFR Part 91.
JulietBravo
On Call, On Demand
Well this has been a very interesting thread. I do agree that if I lost comms, depending on the power/electrical situation, I would probably be forced into an emergency information. I did loose comms once. Turned out it was only because our audio selector box on the top of the stack fried. We were IFR in VFR conditions, so we went 7600 turned around and landed and had a phone call from center on the ground at the FBO.
My only thing is that the majority of the pilots (including myself) would consider this an emergency and get down ASAP. Some of the controllers on here would not expect an aircraft squaking 7600 to enter a hold. So why do we have 91.185 then? Us pilots need to stop saying things like "well the FARs say this, but this is what I would do". I know it's all common sense when we make these decisions, but it just doesn't make sense to me that we have regs like these and we choose to ignore them. As for now though, I still have to teach AVE F and MEA until I find that job where I can fly my own way.
My only thing is that the majority of the pilots (including myself) would consider this an emergency and get down ASAP. Some of the controllers on here would not expect an aircraft squaking 7600 to enter a hold. So why do we have 91.185 then? Us pilots need to stop saying things like "well the FARs say this, but this is what I would do". I know it's all common sense when we make these decisions, but it just doesn't make sense to me that we have regs like these and we choose to ignore them. As for now though, I still have to teach AVE F and MEA until I find that job where I can fly my own way.
twdeckard
New Member
This has been an interesting thread! After I posted, I proofread an error in my scenario that got me thinking productively; given that I have some NAV capability it would be difficult to lose Recieve as well as Transmit unless my David Clark's fell apart. Thus the only likely reason I'm debating the regulations airborne are the more serious problems that warrant an expedited landing. Still I am trying to scribble a note on my brain to make sure I would listen on the likely VOR frequences to see if ATC was trying to reach me.
If I were a CFI-I (I am *not*) I guess I would instruct to the letter of the law and ask the learner to think thru how they would react to the scenarios.
Very dumb question; whats AVE FAME. An acronym for altitudes, and arrival times?
Another interesting question I have wondered about is; if you encountered VFR enroute would you "make a break for it" and head for the closest airport. Certainly common sense and the regulations would demand it but I wonder about the real scenario where the weather is skanky and it might be questionable that you can pick your way to a field in VMC. I am suprised that they don't add the footnote to the regulation "if you can reasonably reach a safe alternate VFR."
If I were a CFI-I (I am *not*) I guess I would instruct to the letter of the law and ask the learner to think thru how they would react to the scenarios.
Very dumb question; whats AVE FAME. An acronym for altitudes, and arrival times?
Another interesting question I have wondered about is; if you encountered VFR enroute would you "make a break for it" and head for the closest airport. Certainly common sense and the regulations would demand it but I wonder about the real scenario where the weather is skanky and it might be questionable that you can pick your way to a field in VMC. I am suprised that they don't add the footnote to the regulation "if you can reasonably reach a safe alternate VFR."
Sled14
Well-Known Member
Just an ancronym for remembering part of 91.185.
Route: AVEF - Assigned, Vectored, Expected, Filed
Altitude: Highest of MEA - Minimum, Expected, Assigned
(1) Route:
(i) By the route assigned in the last ATC clearance received
(ii) If being radar vectored, by the direct route from the point of radio failure to the fix, route, or airway specified in the ventor clearance;
(iii) In the absence of an assigned route, by the route that ATC has advisted may be expected in a further clearance; or
(iv) In the absence of an assigned route or a route that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance, by the route filed in the flight plan
(2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
(i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received;
(ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in 91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or
(iii)The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
Here is a good one that came up in discussion @ my squadron the other day......
You are IMC, ATC is vectoring you off your airway enroute for thunderstorm avoidance (w/o giving you an expected time back on course) and you go lost comms. If you were to follow FAR/FIH you would remain on last assigned heading, or probably more appropriately return to your filed/expected routing. That being said, they weren't vectoring you to any fix/navaid/airway and there is obviously a thunderstorm out there which (you having no wx radar of course ) you are not able to navigate around on your own IMC. What do you do?
You are IMC, ATC is vectoring you off your airway enroute for thunderstorm avoidance (w/o giving you an expected time back on course) and you go lost comms. If you were to follow FAR/FIH you would remain on last assigned heading, or probably more appropriately return to your filed/expected routing. That being said, they weren't vectoring you to any fix/navaid/airway and there is obviously a thunderstorm out there which (you having no wx radar of course
) you are not able to navigate around on your own IMC. What do you do?
