Lost Comm

[jtrain609]

Just let him keep embarrassing himself. Call me psychic, but I'll bet this kid only has a couple hundred hours in his logbook. His thoughts and opinions are underdeveloped, boring, and yield no contribution to this forum or aviation in general. What a joke.

davolijj: thanks for putting that out there. I've flown all over the United States and am here to testify that there are areas all throughout the mountainous west (and even in the midwest) with NO radar coverage (primary or secondary). I guess I should've mentioned that in my original post, but I figured it was such a basic fact that everyone already knew it (I was giving people like jtrain too much credit!).

Yup, I'm only a private pilot. I've actually been lying this entire time. You'd think in the last 6 years that somebody would have caught me, but it took you to do so.

Bravo.

 

[jtrain609]

Bravo, my friend! [standing ovation]

Also.. I know this was mentioned in a proceeding post by someone else, but I'd like to reiterate that losing communications is NOT necessarily an emergency situation. I think we've got some folks posting in this forum that have little or no flying experience, particularly with abnormal procedures or emergencies. You can lose your radios and still have a perfectly capable airplane to fly on to the destination (and that's why the system is designed to accomodate that). The loss of all electrical power is more serious in IMC, but you've still got a perfectly controllable airplane and functioning powerplant. The loss of all electrical power makes it difficult to navigate, so that would be the only situation in which I would probably declare an emergency and land as soon as practical. Losing radios isn't a big deal. Just follow published procedures and fly on.[/quote]


How are you going to navigate if you lose radios in IMC? How are you going to shoot an approach? I consider that a huge emergency. Unless you have a GPS not associated with the nav/coms.

I am guessing you meant coms?

Bingo. A complete electrical failure in IMC in a single/twin engine piston aircraft might is incredibly catastrophic. Again, your best option at that point is to make it to VFR conditions and extract yourself from the situation that way. Otherwise, unless you have a hand held GPS on you that you'd trust your life to for shooting a non precision approach with, you're pretty much hosed.

The problem is these controllers don't have any experience flying airplanes and don't understand the other side of things. They would do themselves some good to try to get on the same page as us instead of trying to lecture.

But I don't see that happening, and there's an incredibly frustrating trend going on here; controllers think THEY fly our airplanes when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[n9088d]

Bravo, my friend! [standing ovation]

Also.. I know this was mentioned in a proceeding post by someone else, but I'd like to reiterate that losing communications is NOT necessarily an emergency situation. I think we've got some folks posting in this forum that have little or no flying experience, particularly with abnormal procedures or emergencies. You can lose your radios and still have a perfectly capable airplane to fly on to the destination (and that's why the system is designed to accomodate that). The loss of all electrical power is more serious in IMC, but you've still got a perfectly controllable airplane and functioning powerplant. The loss of all electrical power makes it difficult to navigate, so that would be the only situation in which I would probably declare an emergency and land as soon as practical. Losing radios isn't a big deal. Just follow published procedures and fly on.[/quote]


How are you going to navigate if you lose radios in IMC? How are you going to shoot an approach? I consider that a huge emergency. Unless you have a GPS not associated with the nav/coms.

I am guessing you meant coms?

I never mentioned anything about nav radios. The phrase "lost communications" doesn't mean "lost communications radios." You can lose communications and still have perfectly functioning communications radios. It could be something as simple as the volume being turned down (I've seen this happen at a Class D airport).

Unless you have a GPS not associated with the nav/coms

And what GPS is assocaited with coms? :crazy:

Like I said previously.. lost comm can be (and is in most cases, discounting ancient comm radios in older airplanes) associated with electrical failure, which would render all avionics (nav radios and GPS) inop. Like I said, if that were the case you would indeed have an emergency on your hands. Your best bet at getting the airplane to a runway might be the use of a handheld GPS in that situation.

 

[jtrain609]

So, clear something up for me boss.

Are you a controller, or are you training to be a controller? I don't know how to read all that stuff in your signature, but it looks like the AT-SAT is a test to GET INTO school to become a controller, meaning you're not moving any aircraft around just quite yet. Or did you go through school already, or I guess most accurately: what's your status?

 

[wjmiller3]

I never mentioned anything about nav radios. The phrase "lost communications" doesn't mean "lost communications radios." You can lose communications and still have perfectly functioning communications radios. It could be something as simple as the volume being turned down (I've seen this happen at a Class D airport).


And what GPS is assocaited with coms? :crazy:

Like I said previously.. lost comm can be (and is in most cases, discounting ancient comm radios in older airplanes) associated with electrical failure, which would render all avionics (nav radios and GPS) inop. Like I said, if that were the case you would indeed have an emergency on your hands. Your best bet at getting the airplane to a runway might be the use of a handheld GPS in that situation.

I consider losing radios and losing coms two diferent things. And when you say lost radios, to me that is saying you lost all nav/com ability.

And what GPS is associated with coms? Go get in a garmin 430/530/1000 ect. equiped airplane and turn the power off to the gps, then try to talk to someone. Thats how they are associated...... They have the same power supply.

 

[davolijj]

So you're saying that the majority of class B, C and D airports don't have radar dishes on site, and couldn't see a primary target from 5-30 miles out (where the FAF/IAF would be)? That seems interesting, being that I've commonly had traffic called out to me by approach control facilities that was actually a flock of birds.

You'd think if radar can see a flock of birds, it could see an airplane.

In most cases class B and C primary airports have Airport Surveillance Radar Sensors located on the field. There are around 120 of these airports in the US and Puerto Rico. Class D fields are hit or miss with respect to radar. They rarely have ASR antennas at the field unless they have a TRSA around the airspace. Most of the time if they have radar it is slaved off a larger primary airport's ASR or a Center long-range ARSR and the coverage is sparse and usually doesn't extend to the ground. To quote our resident ATC and radar expert regarding class D airports:

Would you believe that there are some towers without any radar in them at all, where they use these things called their eye balls?

So let's estimate, conservatively, another 200 class D airports with similar coverage as the B and Cs.

120
+200
320

So as long as you're flying into one of the 320 airports jtrain is referring to you can take his expert advice on ATC and lost comm procedures. If you're flying into one of the other SEVERAL THOUSAND airports across the country, you may want to consider another solution.

 

[jtrain609]

I'm no expert, but I've seen a little bit.

And hows about this; I'll continue to do what's kept me alive for the last 10 years of flying airplanes around, and you can do the same. Or seperating traffic, or telling pilots you're the boss, or whatever it is that you do.

 

[davolijj]

I'm no expert, but I've seen a little bit.

And hows about this; I'll continue to do what's kept me alive for the last 10 years of flying airplanes around, and you can do the same. Or seperating traffic, or telling pilots you're the boss, or whatever it is that you do.

<edit...>

But if that's your way of calling a truce then I accept.

 

[jtrain609]

<edit> But if that's your way of calling a truce then I accept.

Again, I don't know everything, but I've seen a little bit.

What I do think I have a good handle on is how to safely operate an aircraft from point A to point B with and without you guys, and I also know when to tell a controller where they can shove it. To be frank, the lack of understanding that you guys are showing for what goes on inside a cockpit is frightening, but instead of listening you chose to lecture.

I'll keep going on with this as long as you'd like. In the end, I will still be right, because I will still be the pilot in command, and you will be a controller. Look up what we're held to sometime in the regs and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

 

[sundog]

why not just slow down and arrive at IAF on time?

the corollary question of course, is what are the controllers going to expect you to do if you loose comm and arrive at the IAF later than your ETA? probably shoot the approach as soon as you arrive.

 

[davolijj]

What I do think I have a good handle on is how to safely operate an aircraft from point A to point B with and without you guys, and I also know when to tell a controller where they can shove it. To be frank, the lack of understanding that you guys are showing for what goes on inside a cockpit is frightening, but instead of listening you chose to lecture.

I'll keep going on with this as long as you'd like. In the end, I will still be right, because I will still be the pilot in command, and you will be a controller. Look up what we're held to sometime in the regs and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

You're lack of understanding for what goes on outside the cockpit is even more frightening. What do you think you're the only one out there flying? I know what happens in the cockpit, like I've said three times now I'm a pilot as well.

I could keep debating this with you all night but in the end I can't have a rational debate with the irrational so before we get another thread locked let's just agree to disagree and I'll go on correcting all your erroneous information. And so the mod doesn't boot me I'll do it more benevolently next time.

 

[///AMG]

Sorry but in many cases I would tend to agree with Mr. Controller. Lost comms is a deferred emergency since you still have an operable airplane and MOST LIKELY an otherwise functional set of avionics. When you lost your nav equipment and/or electrical power then I would of course agree with jtrain. Deviate when absolutely necessary, but don't just freak out and get yourself into a worse situation than you already are (by inadvertantly smashing into other aircraft who you didn't know were there for example). Just sayin....you all can do whatever you want, just don't hit me with your airplane cause your headset is broken

 

[DL31082]

I consider losing radios and losing coms two diferent things. And when you say lost radios, to me that is saying you lost all nav/com ability.

And what GPS is associated with coms? Go get in a garmin 430/530/1000 ect. equiped airplane and turn the power off to the gps, then try to talk to someone. Thats how they are associated...... They have the same power supply.

Yes and no. You could have your comm antenna knocked off and your GPS would still work. You could lose the comm and nav radio functions and your gps would still work. As another poster said you could turn the volume down and forget and you've now lost comms but your gps works.

 

[wjmiller3]

Yes and no. You could have your comm antenna knocked off and your GPS would still work. You could lose the comm and nav radio functions and your gps would still work. As another poster said you could turn the volume down and forget and you've now lost comms but your gps works.

My point was in an earlier post it was asked by n9088d "what gps is associatied with coms?" They are associated because they are in the same box.....so same power source. You lose power to your 430/530/1000 gps unit, you dont have nav/coms.

 

[wjmiller3]

Why is it showing up that I am quoting myself?

 

[ATC RET 2003]

Why is it showing up that I am quoting myself?

It may be because this was in the message you qouted...

...but what do I know?

 

[wjmiller3]

The page looks different than usual. I've never seen that at the top before?

 

[Sunburn]

Sorry but in many cases I would tend to agree with Mr. Controller. Lost comms is a deferred emergency since you still have an operable airplane and MOST LIKELY an otherwise functional set of avionics. When you lost your nav equipment and/or electrical power then I would of course agree with jtrain. Deviate when absolutely necessary, but don't just freak out and get yourself into a worse situation than you already are (by inadvertantly smashing into other aircraft who you didn't know were there for example). Just sayin....you all can do whatever you want, just don't hit me with your airplane cause your headset is broken

:yup:Thank you for the laugh.

Don't hit me with your airplane cause your headset is broken.

I know it is a serious statement, but the way it was phrased is awesome.

 

[Douglas]

Interesting thread. This was a good topic for discussion because I have thought about this for going into Charlie and Bravos.
Good topic, to bad i got thrown off topic by one of the first posters bringing up an electrical failure. Electrical failure verse lost coms (only) is night and day difference in what you do and are expected to do.

 

[SteveC]

Couple of questions for everyone on this topic:

Do you calculate your expected ETA based on filed departure time or on actual?

How often do you get to the approach fix at a substantially different time than you estimated?