lost a buddy to Jet-U

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Newsflash....HR people aren't really the best ones to say if a pilot is qualified or not. The interview pilots don't see anyone unless HR has invited them, and HR isn't inviting people with less than 1000/200 unless they've paid for a bridge program.

Exactly... which is why I've quit trying to understand (or even reason) how management works at 9E.

Why? B/c it's a cost saving issue. They're more likely to pass ground school if they've already seen the material once, so the company runs less of a risk. In my eyes, that does not make them more qualified than someone with 4 times as much real world experience and 3 times as much multi-engine experience.

Agreed, and like I said, I would hire that 900TT 300ME pilot if he did well in the interview. Both of us can agree that management/recuritment at 9E certainly isn't "simply the best."

Congrats. You're in a very, very tiny minority. If I remember correctly, you left a highly lucrative engineering job, and that's how you paid for all of this. Not everyone has that advantage.

Thanks! And it's true, I did leave a lucrative job for this.

I'm single, so living on the pay isn't too bad for me. I can't even begin to imagine how married guys with kids do this on 1st yr FO pay.

The problem I have is that (like I called it a couple of years ago, and people said I was crazy) bridge programs are artificially raising minimums and jacking the cost of getting an airline job even more. You might be made of money, but most people aren't. It's insane to be in debt $80-100 for this job. But, if you wanna work at Pinnacle, that's more or less the reality. It's also why I'm telling anyone that'll listen to go elsewhere. In the meantime, we're losing prime talent to other regionals.

True, but Pinnacle seems to be the only regional that is a real stickler on 1000TT/200ME, unless you do a bridge program. I'd tell people to go elsewhere (XJT, Eagle, AirWis, etc). If they really want DTW, MEM, or MSP, and don't have 1000tt/200me, then I recommend applying to Mesaba.

And bridge guys have washed out, too. Is there a point here? Every class is gonna have washouts. It's the law of averages. My point (which seems to have been missed) is guys that would otherwise make excellent airline pilots aren't even getting the opportunity.

True on bridge program washouts, but the two I knew washed out for dumb reasons. Attitude, personality conflicts.

As for 'not getting the opportunity' , it's true at Pinnacle. But I recommend those guys to try everywhere else.

Again, I don't even want to begin to think or reason how Nonconnah management works.

Not trying to reason why. Just pointing out that it's happening. You might be okay with it, but I'm not. If I had to spend an extra $30K for this job, I'd still be tossing bags on the ramp. It's not worth the headaches of trying to figure out how to pay that much just to hurry up and sit in the right seat. I'm DAMN glad of the route I took. I'm not going to say it's the only route or the best route, but I wouldn't change it for me. Now, that route is being closed off altogether. If this policy had been in place two years ago, I wouldn't have even gotten an interview. It's sort of a kick in the nuts to make it that far, work that hard only to be told that "Sure, we'll invite you to an interview.....if you spend a couple thousand more on this class." And management wonders why they can't fill the new hire classes....

True, but keep in mind money still will be spent *somewhere*. I knew a guy who had 350TT and no CFIs. He did ALLATPs CRJ course for 6,000 bucks, and got hired at Pinnacle. If he didn't go that route, he would have had to get his CFI initial, CFI-I, and MEI, which would have cost more than 6k. So in the end, it still worked out for him. There are many others in the same boat, and it works out for them.

True, spending 27k at Jet U was NOT worth it. But I would have still have to spend thousands if I had wanted to get my Commercial-Single, CFI initial, CFI-I, and MEI.

I think it's "whatever floats ones boat." Some people are in the good position to take and benefit from a RJ course from ALLATPs, others are not.

Even with 900TT and 300ME, Pinnacle might not touch you, but every single other regional airline will.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Ooook. Stop. Halt. Hold it. Freeze. I'm afraid I need to hoist the BS flag, here.

All of what... one, maybe two of them? Please....

Who f'in cares if some dingleberry wants to throw down a bunch of money to occupy the right seat in a single pilot airplane, build multi time, and load boxes. Through ALL the time "Captain" Jtrain was at AMF, I bet I can count on one hand the number of "PFT F/O's" we had system wide and on the other hand the total number of people he trained. It's not like there was a waiting list to ride shotgun, especially in the Chieftain.

Sorry John, don't take this the wrong way, but you need to get real my friend. This ego stroking campaign of yours is getting way old.

LMAO! Well said!

Free beer for ESF if we ever meet.

 

[SmitteyB]

I paid a flight school for training in a CRJ simulator. This flight school was NOT owned, nor operated by any regional airline.

I merely paid a flight school to further my own credentials to help me get an interview(s).

And, note, the payment was to the said flight school for the services they provided to me to get more competitive.


NOW... that I've been hired by a regional, I want to be paid like any normal regional F/O.

If thats what you have to tell yourself so you can sleep at night, then so be it. You went to JetU so you wouldn't have to instruct, it's as simple as that. Instructing cost me an extra 6 months to the airlines...I wouldn't change it for anything. Amazing experience.

I got BLASTED by some Colgan captains because I had about 550 TT/ 250 Multi/ 200 Dual Given when I got hired.

Now I know that turboprops require a higher skilled pilot, but <250 TT? WTF?

 

[jtrain609]

Ooook. Stop. Halt. Hold it. Freeze. I'm afraid I need to hoist the BS flag, here.

All of what... one, maybe two of them? Please....

Who f'in cares if some dingleberry wants to throw down a bunch of money to occupy the right seat in a single pilot airplane, build multi time, and load boxes. Through ALL the time "Captain" Jtrain was at AMF, I bet I can count on one hand the number of "PFT F/O's" we had system wide and on the other hand the total number of people he trained. It's not like there was a waiting list to ride shotgun, especially in the Chieftain.

Sorry John, don't take this the wrong way, but you need to get real my friend. This ego stroking campaign of yours is getting way old.

Oh no Marshall, you found me out! I'm really a poser! I was actually an intern the entire time I was in Burbank! Oh the horror, the train caught in a lie! Do I need the sarcasm tag?

What's with you lately? You're sniping me on a message forum to get your kicks, but you won't pick up the phone or drive an hour to Newark to tell me the same thing to my face?

That's weak bro, but I hope everything is alright in your life.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Come on now, don't put words in my mouth. Is anything I said untrue? You've been posting from a pretty high pedestal lately, that's all, and I know I'm not the only one who's noticed. For someone with a degree in arguing, I'm just surprised at how often your message is getting lost in the over dramatic delivery lately.

So how about it- I'll stop being a • and buy the first round next time if you stop being so dramatic? :cwm27:

 

[Patrick]

"There's a reason that the airlines are preferring these pilots, and they're getting no money at all from them as they would in a PFT scheme."

Ummm.... Yeah.....

Let it be known that if you do an RJ course, you have a better chance of getting through initial 121 at a regional.

The problem I have with that is saying that it makes you a better pilot, or saying the RJ course is a substitute for real life experience.

It's not. It's a symptom of how F'd up this business has become. I'm sick of it. I fear for the future of the career.....

Unfortunately, I could not agree more.

 

[Trip7]

Man people sure do care alot about how somebody else spends their money. In my short time in the airline business so far I've seen that 99% of the pilots out there don't really care about most of the BS politics stuff we talk about (Bridge programs, jumpseat wars, my regional is better than your regional etc). Anyways, if someone wants to do a bridge program because they feel they want to beef up their qualifications, go ahead. In fact one of my former students called me the other day asking for advice saying he had no desire to instruct and wants to do the RJ program. I said bro, if you think you're ready, go for it. And based on my time instructing him and noticing his abilities, I think he's ready to make the leap. Moreover, we got a bunch of regional FOs on here laying down the law on how thangs should run. I think some folks on here should spend sometime working in the training department and/or as IOE captains and comeback on here and make a little more 'informed' decisions. Apparently only one person on here, PCL_128, can vouch that.

 

[Trip7]

Newnan's also ASA base housing!

Since when yo? Maybe for Captains lol. Most I know live in Symrna/Vinings/Marietta area. Oh, I found a place, Im moving to Marietta:nana2:

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Come on now, don't put words in my mouth. Is anything I said untrue? You've been posting from a pretty high pedestal lately, that's all, and I know I'm not the only one who's noticed. For someone with a degree in arguing, I'm just surprised at how often your message is getting lost in the over dramatic delivery lately.

So how about it- I'll stop being a • and buy the first round next time if you stop being so dramatic? :cwm27:

Yeah John, you know I like ya but I gotta agree with ESF. All in all you're still a relative noob (as a lot of us are) to the industry. I kinda see you falling into the Velo trap. Good message, poor delivery. Talk more bout the issue than "the way YOU did it is wrong...here's what I did which is much better". Again, you're a good dude, just tone it down a little.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Man people sure do care alot about how somebody else spends their money. In my short time in the airline business so far I've seen that 99% of the pilots out there don't really care about most of the BS politics stuff we talk about (Bridge programs, jumpseat wars, my regional is better than your regional etc). Anyways, if someone wants to do a bridge program because they feel they want to beef up their qualifications, go ahead. In fact one of my former students called me the other day asking for advice saying he had no desire to instruct and wants to do the RJ program. I said bro, if you think you're ready, go for it. And based on my time instructing him and noticing his abilities, I think he's ready to make the leap. Moreover, we got a bunch of regional FOs on here laying down the law on how thangs should run. I think some folks on here should spend sometime working in the training department and/or as IOE captains and comeback on here and make a little more 'informed' decisions. Apparently only one person on here, PCL_128, can vouch that.

Here is why I'm not a big fan of the bridge program. I don't care where people spend their money. They can go drop 30g on crack cocaine for all I care. But when you go out and do a bridge program you further the idea that it is a good idea. I've experienced this in that when I started at UND we didn't even have an RJ sim. About half way through my time there, we got one. Rather than making it a new class, they substituted it for one of the classes that was already required so we HAD to take it before we graduated. Hooray spending another 4-5k

Will a bridge program help you get through training? Absolutely! It helps you the same way the gleim helps you pass an FAA written exam. If you've taken the test before, of course you'll do better the second time.

My problem is that taking an RJ course wont make you a better pilot. It will give you a good understanding of the systems, how to fly it, etc. But that is the easy part of flying. The difficult part is the decision making aspect. Your decision making abilities get zero development sitting in an FTD firmly bolted to the ground with an instructor in the back. Your time (and ok, money probably too) is much better spent getting your CFI and teaching people. And I don't buy that BS of "I wouldn't make a good teacher". Such a cop out.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

If thats what you have to tell yourself so you can sleep at night, then so be it. You went to JetU so you wouldn't have to instruct, it's as simple as that.

The above statement is correct. What's your point? We here at Pinnacle have HUNDREDS of pilots who never instructed and/or don't have their CFIs certs.

Instructing cost me an extra 6 months to the airlines...I wouldn't change it for anything. Amazing experience.

I'm sure it was, and I'm glad your route worked out exactly as you wanted.

I got BLASTED by some Colgan captains because I had about 550 TT/ 250 Multi/ 200 Dual Given when I got hired.

That's surprising. Do those Captains know that the minimums at their very own airline are just 500TT and 50ME? I don't see how them blasting you helps any cause.

Now I know that turboprops require a higher skilled pilot, but <250 TT? WTF?

Yes, I had less than 250 hrs TT when I was hired on the CRJ. I'm certainly not the first, and won't be the last either.


I won't judge people for what route they chose... CFI, bridge program, traffic watch, etc.

 

[Trip7]

Here is why I'm not a big fan of the bridge program. I don't care where people spend their money. They can go drop 30g on crack cocaine for all I care. But when you go out and do a bridge program you further the idea that it is a good idea. I've experienced this in that when I started at UND we didn't even have an RJ sim. About half way through my time there, we got one. Rather than making it a new class, they substituted it for one of the classes that was already required so we HAD to take it before we graduated. Hooray spending another 4-5k

Will a bridge program help you get through training? Absolutely! It helps you the same way the gleim helps you pass an FAA written exam. If you've taken the test before, of course you'll do better the second time.

My problem is that taking an RJ course wont make you a better pilot. It will give you a good understanding of the systems, how to fly it, etc. But that is the easy part of flying. The difficult part is the decision making aspect. Your decision making abilities get zero development sitting in an FTD firmly bolted to the ground with an instructor in the back. Your time (and ok, money probably too) is much better spent getting your CFI and teaching people. And I don't buy that BS of "I wouldn't make a good teacher". Such a cop out.

I don't think RJ programs are a requirement nowadays at all. I don't know where people are getting that. Its a requirement for low timers because stats have proven, low timers with this program will more likely pass than not. If you have 1000/200 Pinnacle will take ya. ASA will take ya, XJT will take ya. Anybody will take ya. 300/50, heck na. In that case an bridge might be a requirement. I HIGHLY doubt, in fact will put money on it, that there will never be a day where EVERYBODY is required to a bridge program. Bridge programs are a low time thang.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The difficult part is the decision making aspect. Your decision making abilities get zero development sitting in an FTD firmly bolted to the ground with an instructor in the back. Your time (and ok, money probably too) is much better spent getting your CFI and teaching people. And I don't buy that BS of "I wouldn't make a good teacher". Such a cop out.

And sitting right seat in a 152 teaching people how to do slow flight and stalls doesn't teach you the kind of decision-making skills that you're talking about either. (and before anyone asks, yes, I was a CFI) Being a CFI is great for furthering your instrument skills, and maybe some CRM skills, but decision making in a complex environment? Sorry, but no. Only actually flying in the 121 environment for an extended period of time will help you with that. That's why I advocate high upgrade minimums. I want guys to sit in the right seat for several years in an airline environment before they upgrade. That's really the only experience that teaches you how to be an air line Captain.

 

[KLB]

I don't think RJ programs are a requirement nowadays at all. I don't know where people are getting that. Its a requirement for low timers because stats have proven, low timers with this program will more likely pass than not. If you have 1000/200 Pinnacle will take ya. ASA will take ya, XJT will take ya. Anybody will take ya. 300/50, heck na. In that case an bridge might be a requirement. I HIGHLY doubt, in fact will put money on it, that there will never be a day where EVERYBODY is required to a bridge program. Bridge programs are a low time thang.

I don't know man. They were pushing the bridge programs on me hard at the OBAP convention this past year. And I had well over 1500hrs TT and 500hrs multi at the time.

If it keeps going like this, they will be telling you that the only way that you can upgrade is that if you buy your own type rating. Wouldn't that just suck?

 

[Trip7]

And sitting right seat in a 152 teaching people how to do slow flight and stalls doesn't teach you the kind of decision-making skills that you're talking about either. (and before anyone asks, yes, I was a CFI) Being a CFI is great for furthering your instrument skills, and maybe some CRM skills, but decision making in a complex environment? Sorry, but no. Only actually flying in the 121 environment for an extended period of time will help you with that. That's why I advocate high upgrade minimums. I want guys to sit in the right seat for several years in an airline environment before they upgrade. That's really the only experience that teaches you how to be an air line Captain.

This brings me to my next thought. I think that instrument skills have alot to do with people struggling with 121 training. People harp CFI, CFI, CFI and rant all day about how much banging around the pattern will do for you. For me personally, my skills and confidence in my flying grew immensely at Skymates when I had a boat load of instrument students and I was constantly flying IFR in the busy DFW class B. On multi checkouts for timebuilding in twins I did I took those guys on IFR cross countries to help build their skills in the IFR system and they all told me they really appreciated it as you learn a whole lot. Radio communications, STARS/SIDS, talking to the same controllers the big boys are talking to, picking up clearance after clearance etc. When I was on breaks and sometimes after work, I jumped on the simulator we have there at Skymates and flew approach after approach as fast as I could. After alittle bit of practice even NDB approaches are easy Its extremely important to stay current on instruments. Those skill erode very fast when not used. After getting my instrument ticket I didn't fly instruments for 6 months until CFI school at Vegas and boy was it ugly. I believe instrument skills will make or break you in this career. After all thats all we do. Instead of harping about CFI, CFI, CFI, I preach CFII, CFII, and CFII. I challenge all of you aspiring airline pilots, go jump on your local school's simulator, heck even jump on MS Flight Sim, fly as many approaches as you can, fly em as fast as you can, then everyday search for a more a difficult approach. Fly the Quito, Ecuador approach. Fly the the St. Maarten approach. Fly an Aspen approach. Become an Instrument Skillz Extradinaire.

 

[Trip7]

I don't know man. They were pushing the bridge programs on me hard at the OBAP convention this past year. And I had well over 1500hrs TT and 500hrs multi at the time.

If it keeps going like this, they will be telling you that the only way that you can upgrade is that if you buy your own type rating. Wouldn't that just suck?

Who was?!? You over there talking to Continental and the other big boys and a regional talking bout bridge program? They needz to be smacked. When I was over there Pinnacle said in order to hire you with this low of time you need to do a bridge.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

And sitting right seat in a 152 teaching people how to do slow flight and stalls doesn't teach you the kind of decision-making skills that you're talking about either. (and before anyone asks, yes, I was a CFI) Being a CFI is great for furthering your instrument skills, and maybe some CRM skills, but decision making in a complex environment? Sorry, but no. Only actually flying in the 121 environment for an extended period of time will help you with that. That's why I advocate high upgrade minimums. I want guys to sit in the right seat for several years in an airline environment before they upgrade. That's really the only experience that teaches you how to be an air line Captain.

I think that really all depends on where you instruct and what kind it is. I strongly dissagree that my decision making abilties weren't greatly affected by becoming a flight instructor. But again, that was just my experience.

I see what you're saying though. To steal a line from "Airplane" it is an entirely different kind of flying...alltogether". But an airport is an airport, weather is weather, and airspace is airspace, no matter what kind of plane you are flying. Gaining experience in operating in all of these can do nothing but help make you a better pilot. Especially if you're instructing others to do the same.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

This brings me to my next thought. I think that instrument skills have alot to do with people struggling with 121 training. People harp CFI, CFI, CFI and rant all day about how much banging around the pattern will do for you. For me personally, my skills and confidence in my flying grew immensely at Skymates when I had a boat load of instrument students and I was constantly flying IFR in the busy DFW class B. On multi checkouts for timebuilding in twins I did I took those guys on IFR cross countries to help build their skills in the IFR system and they all told me they really appreciated it as you learn a whole lot. Radio communications, STARS/SIDS, talking to the same controllers the big boys are talking to, picking up clearance after clearance etc. When I was on breaks and sometimes after work, I jumped on the simulator we have there at Skymates and flew approach after approach as fast as I could. After alittle bit of practice even NDB approaches are easy Its extremely important to stay current on instruments. Those skill erode very fast when not used. After getting my instrument ticket I didn't fly instruments for 6 months until CFI school at Vegas and boy was it ugly. I believe instrument skills will make or break you in this career. After all thats all we do. Instead of harping about CFI, CFI, CFI, I preach CFII, CFII, and CFII. I challenge all of you aspiring airline pilots, go jump on your local school's simulator, heck even jump on MS Flight Sim, fly as many approaches as you can, fly em as fast as you can, then everyday search for a more a difficult approach. Fly the Quito, Ecuador approach. Fly the the St. Maarten approach. Fly an Aspen approach. Become an Instrument Skillz Extradinaire.

Good post. I always encouraged my students who already had their instrument rating to file IFR and use the NAS as much as possible while they were building time for their commercial ticket. Flying up and down the Florida coast VFR may be fun, but it doesn't prepare you for jack in the airline industry.

 

[Goonie]

This brings me to my next thought. I think that instrument skills have alot to do with people struggling with 121 training. People harp CFI, CFI, CFI and rant all day about how much banging around the pattern will do for you. For me personally, my skills and confidence in my flying grew immensely at Skymates when I had a boat load of instrument students and I was constantly flying IFR in the busy DFW class B. On multi checkouts for timebuilding in twins I did I took those guys on IFR cross countries to help build their skills in the IFR system and they all told me they really appreciated it as you learn a whole lot. Radio communications, STARS/SIDS, talking to the same controllers the big boys are talking to, picking up clearance after clearance etc. When I was on breaks and sometimes after work, I jumped on the simulator we have there at Skymates and flew approach after approach as fast as I could. After alittle bit of practice even NDB approaches are easy Its extremely important to stay current on instruments. Those skill erode very fast when not used. After getting my instrument ticket I didn't fly instruments for 6 months until CFI school at Vegas and boy was it ugly. I believe instrument skills will make or break you in this career. After all thats all we do. Instead of harping about CFI, CFI, CFI, I preach CFII, CFII, and CFII. I challenge all of you aspiring airline pilots, go jump on your local school's simulator, heck even jump on MS Flight Sim, fly as many approaches as you can, fly em as fast as you can, then everyday search for a more a difficult approach. Fly the Quito, Ecuador approach. Fly the the St. Maarten approach. Fly an Aspen approach. Become an Instrument Skillz Extradinaire.

Good post Marcus!

Told you for my instrument student their long x-country would be KDFW-KVGT-KSFO(2,500NM). They became great instrument pilots and passed a checkride no ploblem.

Instructing will make you a better pilot. No arguing that.

 

[KLB]

I never really did the whole flying around the patch thing. We went all over the place once I got them soloed. I did the same thing that 777 did during instrument training. After they learned all of the basics, we went everywhere. It was just as good for me as it was for my students.