lost a buddy to Jet-U
- Thread starter taseal
- Start date
Trip7
Well-Known Member
What's that joke again goes something like The most dangerous thing an FO can say to a captain is "in my experience"
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
What's that joke again goes something like The most dangerous thing an FO can say to a captain is "in my experience"
Yeah funny how that works, 'cause I was referring to when I used to wear four stripes.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Dude, were you flying with my FO from December? Oh wait, you said new guy... Sorry that seemed to be EXACTLY what I was doing the ENTIRE month. You know the worst part? He still never improved. Same problems on work day 15 as on work day 1. I could go on for paragraphs about the things I pointed out/noticed/tried to help fix over the month...
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I paid a flight school for training in a CRJ simulator. This flight school was NOT owned, nor operated by any regional airline.
I merely paid a flight school to further my own credentials to help me get an interview(s).
And, note, the payment was to the said flight school for the services they provided to me to get more competitive.
NOW... that I've been hired by a regional, I want to be paid like any normal regional F/O.
What don't you get about that?
jtrain said:
The fact you said "PFTers" and not "low-timers" is very telling of you, Mr. Jtrain.
It's sad that lots here don't distinguish between the two.
I would say about 40% of Jet U people I knew, had over 1000 hrs total time.
And yet again, people confuse and lump Gulfstream Academy with the same as Jet U.
Gulfstream is a P-F-J operation. Jet U is not.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Here's what I don't like. There are tons of perfectly qualified pilots out there that would make great FOs and future CAs at PCL. Unfortunately, PCL won't touch them unless they spend thousands of dollars on a program like JetU. Why? B/c guys are lined up around the corner to skip being a CFI so they can make $18K a year faster while trying to pay off this huge ass loan. Lemme tell ya, 2nd year FO pay isn't much better, either. I credited 1000+ hours last year, and I didn't even see $25K. I can't imagine trying to feed, live and buy clothing for myself with a loan of JetU size over my head.
But, hey. Apparently some guys think they're better qualified with 250 hours and JetU than someone with 900 hours and 300 ME. I don't agree with that, but whatever.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Not qualified in the eyes of Pinnacle recruiters. With no bridge program, "perfectly qualified" means 1000TT and 200ME. Get those, and those "great FO and future CAs" can come to Pinnacle.
Oh? And normal CFIs who instructed and took that route, DON'T have loans?
I know CFIs who are in debt by over $150k (and some OVER 200k) by becoming CFIs at places like ERAU with a 4 yr degree.
And for the record, I have no debt, and never took any loan for Jet U.
It doesn't matter what we agree with or don't agree with. THis is all the perogative of Pinnacle recuriters.
With Jet U or other bridge program: No TT/ME requirements.
With no Jet U or no other bridge program: 1000TT and 300ME.
In your example above, that guy needs to get just 100 more hours and he'll get into Pinnacle. Or take a bridge program.
I will also like to add two people in my class failed the sim checkride (twice) and washed out. Both were CFIs with over 1000 hours. All bridge program guys passed in my class. Take it for what it's worth.
Personally, I would grant an interview to a guy with 900TT and 300ME and no bridge program.
But Pinnacle recuriters (and Pinnacle management) do things that may not make sense. I've quit trying to reason out stuff they do. Saves a huge headache.
Velocipede
New Member
Gotta go with PCL on this one. FNGs are FNGs regardless of how they got there. Some of the worst FNGs I've seen were military fighter pilot types.
Not only did they have a rough time with a crew served airplane, they "knew it all" and weren't open to suggestion.
Sigh!
Not only did they have a rough time with a crew served airplane, they "knew it all" and weren't open to suggestion.
Sigh!
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
Alright guys and gals, its obvious where the majority sits on this one... I don't think that RJ courses are good for the industry more than anyone else. However if someone chooses to take one Im not going to pass judgment on them. Different strokes for different folks. I took the free one with ATP and I already met the mins without the course when I took it. But thought that it wouldn't hurt to have it. And this isn't just in the aviation industry. There are plenty of jobs out there where people who may be more qualified get passed up by some young fresh out of college guy even though that person has never had any previous experience. My wife works in Marketing, she got her job fresh out of college with absolutly no experience while a lady that now works for her has been at the company for 8 years and also applied for the job and didn't get it because she didn't have a degree. Who had more experience? I would say the lady that didn't have the degree. Same goes for people with Masters degrees compared to Bachelors degrees. Guys with 250 hours have no business flying passengers for an airline whether they have a RJ course or not. But don't pass judgment because someone takes a different route. Do you all think that its BS that a guy with 20,000 hours with no college degree cant get hired at a major when someone with less than 1/4 of the hours can if they have one? I do...
But life isn't fair, especially in this industry...
But life isn't fair, especially in this industry...
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Newsflash....HR people aren't really the best ones to say if a pilot is qualified or not. The interview pilots don't see anyone unless HR has invited them, and HR isn't inviting people with less than 1000/200 unless they've paid for a bridge program. Why? B/c it's a cost saving issue. They're more likely to pass ground school if they've already seen the material once, so the company runs less of a risk. In my eyes, that does not make them more qualified than someone with 4 times as much real world experience and 3 times as much multi-engine experience.
And I'd tell them they were crazy, too.
Congrats. You're in a very, very tiny minority. If I remember correctly, you left a highly lucrative engineering job, and that's how you paid for all of this. Not everyone has that advantage.
The problem I have is that (like I called it a couple of years ago, and people said I was crazy) bridge programs are artificially raising minimums and jacking the cost of getting an airline job even more. You might be made of money, but most people aren't. It's insane to be in debt $80-100 for this job. But, if you wanna work at Pinnacle, that's more or less the reality. It's also why I'm telling anyone that'll listen to go elsewhere. In the meantime, we're losing prime talent to other regionals.
And bridge guys have washed out, too. Is there a point here? Every class is gonna have washouts. It's the law of averages. My point (which seems to have been missed) is guys that would otherwise make excellent airline pilots aren't even getting the opportunity.
Not trying to reason why. Just pointing out that it's happening. You might be okay with it, but I'm not. If I had to spend an extra $30K for this job, I'd still be tossing bags on the ramp. It's not worth the headaches of trying to figure out how to pay that much just to hurry up and sit in the right seat. I'm DAMN glad of the route I took. I'm not going to say it's the only route or the best route, but I wouldn't change it for me. Now, that route is being closed off altogether. If this policy had been in place two years ago, I wouldn't have even gotten an interview. It's sort of a kick in the nuts to make it that far, work that hard only to be told that "Sure, we'll invite you to an interview.....if you spend a couple thousand more on this class." And management wonders why they can't fill the new hire classes....
Patrick
Well-Known Member
I think this whole argument stems on what type of bridge program we're talking about. We at Career Pilot School are working on a bridge program, and are evaluating what needs to be taught in it. Here are my thoughts:
There is a significant change when moving from flying piston singles and light twins into flying either a transport class turboprop or transport class jet. Yes, whoever you go to to fly for will teach you to fly their equipment, the way they want you to fly it. Now, is that transition a bit easier if the student has had some experience, at least in the cockpit environment, pushing buttons and playing with the computers? Absolutely. Does said bridge program need to be the equivalent of a type rating? Absolutely not.
The program we are developing will likely cost between $5000 and $7000 and be an initiation into the operating procedures of a regional jet, not the equivalent of a type rating. Do I expect this program to offer a graduate of our program a better shot at making it through IOE (or just simply making IOE a less stressful experience) wherever he gets hired? Yes.
As has been pointed out in this thread, there are some guys who come in with over 1000 hours, likely mostly dual given, who struggle through IOE, wash out, or simply don't make good FOs after all that. There are some guys who come in at 270 hours, maybe even without a bridge program, who turn out to make great FOs. Point is, it all depends on the person, and I've thought for a long time that this industry should hire and upgrade people based on performance and competence vs time and seniority or education (or lack thereof).
I don't like the idea of paying for our own type ratings, even though its commonplace in other parts of the world, and at certain companies here in he US. This whole debate also brings up the topic of the MPL, as while racking up hours dual given is a great thing for pilot knowledge, and general experience operating an aircraft in the airspace system, it does little for your actual flying skills, which is exactly what you're hired to do once you make it to the front of a transport class aircraft.
Keep in mind as well, the concept of "paying it forward:" If you want to be an airline pilot, but have no interest in being an instructor, and to go a step further, are pretty damn sure you won't be a good instructor, how much value are you giving back to the industry by taking a CFI job only to build your own hours to get to your end goal? I think bridge programs are a great idea for someone in this situation, as this individual is being honest with himself, and isn't cheating anyone in the process of getting where he wants to be.
I do think the idea of training pilots, from day one, to function in a crew environment, in a modern jet aircraft does hold some water. As to how many hours one needs to be safe and proficient in that role, that I can't directly say, as again, it depends on the individual person.
In closing, I do think that bridge programs have value, but I do not see any need to spend $30k for one. The programs that are under $10k I think have value, as they are truly an initiation to the modern jet cockpit environment and are reasonably priced as such. I also don't want to see us forced to pay for our own type ratings.
There is much turmoil in this industry, and only time will tell how things turn out.
There is a significant change when moving from flying piston singles and light twins into flying either a transport class turboprop or transport class jet. Yes, whoever you go to to fly for will teach you to fly their equipment, the way they want you to fly it. Now, is that transition a bit easier if the student has had some experience, at least in the cockpit environment, pushing buttons and playing with the computers? Absolutely. Does said bridge program need to be the equivalent of a type rating? Absolutely not.
The program we are developing will likely cost between $5000 and $7000 and be an initiation into the operating procedures of a regional jet, not the equivalent of a type rating. Do I expect this program to offer a graduate of our program a better shot at making it through IOE (or just simply making IOE a less stressful experience) wherever he gets hired? Yes.
As has been pointed out in this thread, there are some guys who come in with over 1000 hours, likely mostly dual given, who struggle through IOE, wash out, or simply don't make good FOs after all that. There are some guys who come in at 270 hours, maybe even without a bridge program, who turn out to make great FOs. Point is, it all depends on the person, and I've thought for a long time that this industry should hire and upgrade people based on performance and competence vs time and seniority or education (or lack thereof).
I don't like the idea of paying for our own type ratings, even though its commonplace in other parts of the world, and at certain companies here in he US. This whole debate also brings up the topic of the MPL, as while racking up hours dual given is a great thing for pilot knowledge, and general experience operating an aircraft in the airspace system, it does little for your actual flying skills, which is exactly what you're hired to do once you make it to the front of a transport class aircraft.
Keep in mind as well, the concept of "paying it forward:" If you want to be an airline pilot, but have no interest in being an instructor, and to go a step further, are pretty damn sure you won't be a good instructor, how much value are you giving back to the industry by taking a CFI job only to build your own hours to get to your end goal? I think bridge programs are a great idea for someone in this situation, as this individual is being honest with himself, and isn't cheating anyone in the process of getting where he wants to be.
I do think the idea of training pilots, from day one, to function in a crew environment, in a modern jet aircraft does hold some water. As to how many hours one needs to be safe and proficient in that role, that I can't directly say, as again, it depends on the individual person.
In closing, I do think that bridge programs have value, but I do not see any need to spend $30k for one. The programs that are under $10k I think have value, as they are truly an initiation to the modern jet cockpit environment and are reasonably priced as such. I also don't want to see us forced to pay for our own type ratings.
There is much turmoil in this industry, and only time will tell how things turn out.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Honest question, no flame meant!
But, do you perhaps agree with bridge programs because your school is about to start offering one?
And it would then be bad for business to have one on property, and be morally against them?
The more these bridge programs become commonplace, the more companies will expect people to get them. Paying 5 - 7k to get a warm fuzzy to pass IOE is a huge waste of money. The airlines will pay you to learn their equipment and their procedures.
What does it take to pass airline ground school?
- Prior aviation book knowledge
- The ability to study and retain knowledge
- Time management ability
- Solid IFR flying skills
- Solid decision making abilites
- The motivation to get it done
You don't need a bridge course for any of that.
Let's face it - maybe those 1000 hour guys who don't make it through IOE simply lack the skills, knowledge and ability to be an airline pilot. If you were a dirtbag CFI you'll be a dirtbag airline trainee.
I couldn't disagree more. It's usually low time guys or non-CFIs who say this. If you are actively CFI-ing and your "airplane flying skills" don't improve, you're doing it wrong.
The MPL would take away what little PIC experience guys are getting currently, meaning someone's first true PIC experience would be at the helm of a 121 aircraft years down the road. Ugh.
What does it take to pass airline ground school?
- Prior aviation book knowledge
- The ability to study and retain knowledge
- Time management ability
- Solid IFR flying skills
- Solid decision making abilites
- The motivation to get it done
You don't need a bridge course for any of that.
Let's face it - maybe those 1000 hour guys who don't make it through IOE simply lack the skills, knowledge and ability to be an airline pilot. If you were a dirtbag CFI you'll be a dirtbag airline trainee.
I couldn't disagree more. It's usually low time guys or non-CFIs who say this. If you are actively CFI-ing and your "airplane flying skills" don't improve, you're doing it wrong.
The MPL would take away what little PIC experience guys are getting currently, meaning someone's first true PIC experience would be at the helm of a 121 aircraft years down the road. Ugh.
KLB
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
My flying skills improved tremendously after CFI'ing for that first couple hundred hours. I've said it on here before and I'll say it again.
I'm not a 121 guy, but I think that training is more about having good study habits and the ability the retain information given than anything else. If you have those two things, you're 80% golden.
Patrick
Well-Known Member
"Let's face it - maybe those 1000 hour guys who don't make it through IOE simply lack the skills, knowledge and ability to be an airline pilot. If you were a dirtbag CFI you'll be a dirtbag airline trainee."
Completely agree, however there are still guys who want to try it. I also agree, with regard to what Ian said as far as requirements go for getting an airline job, however, I also think that transition is easier if you have at least a little bit of familiarization with the jet cockpit environment. Now, whether that is worth anything to someone is a matter of personal decision. I do not, however, want to see the US industry move the way of the Europeans where we are all paying for our own type ratings in order to get jobs.
I don't promote or shoot down the bridge program because we are looking to create one. We are on the supply side of the pilot training business, and as such do have to have concern with regard to what demand is. If both students and the airlines who hire our students want to see a bridge program, thats something we need to consider.
Probably my biggest complaint to the idea of the MPL is exactly that: the first PIC flying that person will get will be as PIC of a jet airliner, carrying perhaps hundreds of passengers. I really object to this.
Now, my personal opinion on the matter of how to get from zero time into the front of that shiny big jet? Go to flight school, learn to fly. Either instruct or perhaps sit right seat in a charter operation. Move up to a charter pilot or freight pilot, flying a twin piston. Move up from a twin piston to a turboprop. Then move up to the shiny jet, and then up to a bigger shiny jet, if one so chooses. Me? I am very much looking forward to flying a turboprop, and I think the guys who go straight from flight school into a CRJ or ERJ are missing out on a lot of great flight experience by skipping the middle steps.
So, let me formally state that I completely disagree with the "modern" career path of moving straight out of flight school into a regional jet, however, right or wrong, thats what is happening. And, in this environment, I do think that the right bridge program will help that guy who goes straight to a regional airline.
Completely agree, however there are still guys who want to try it. I also agree, with regard to what Ian said as far as requirements go for getting an airline job, however, I also think that transition is easier if you have at least a little bit of familiarization with the jet cockpit environment. Now, whether that is worth anything to someone is a matter of personal decision. I do not, however, want to see the US industry move the way of the Europeans where we are all paying for our own type ratings in order to get jobs.
I don't promote or shoot down the bridge program because we are looking to create one. We are on the supply side of the pilot training business, and as such do have to have concern with regard to what demand is. If both students and the airlines who hire our students want to see a bridge program, thats something we need to consider.
Probably my biggest complaint to the idea of the MPL is exactly that: the first PIC flying that person will get will be as PIC of a jet airliner, carrying perhaps hundreds of passengers. I really object to this.
Now, my personal opinion on the matter of how to get from zero time into the front of that shiny big jet? Go to flight school, learn to fly. Either instruct or perhaps sit right seat in a charter operation. Move up to a charter pilot or freight pilot, flying a twin piston. Move up from a twin piston to a turboprop. Then move up to the shiny jet, and then up to a bigger shiny jet, if one so chooses. Me? I am very much looking forward to flying a turboprop, and I think the guys who go straight from flight school into a CRJ or ERJ are missing out on a lot of great flight experience by skipping the middle steps.
So, let me formally state that I completely disagree with the "modern" career path of moving straight out of flight school into a regional jet, however, right or wrong, thats what is happening. And, in this environment, I do think that the right bridge program will help that guy who goes straight to a regional airline.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I just drew an interesting parallel...
When I first came to JC, I argued against the concept of having a degree, stating that having a degree was really no measure of my intelligence or flying skill. And this was fundamentally true, except that the Airline Wanted It. Period. Check the box.
Okay. Cool. I get that, and I still plan to get a degree.
But I suppose now, in the case of JetU/Pinnacle and bridge programs/RJ Classes is that right or wrong, Pinnacle seems to want the program.
<shrug>
When I first came to JC, I argued against the concept of having a degree, stating that having a degree was really no measure of my intelligence or flying skill. And this was fundamentally true, except that the Airline Wanted It. Period. Check the box.
Okay. Cool. I get that, and I still plan to get a degree.
But I suppose now, in the case of JetU/Pinnacle and bridge programs/RJ Classes is that right or wrong, Pinnacle seems to want the program.
<shrug>
taseal
Well-Known Member
you are right. I emailed them with some made up hours (I used 493 TT and 78 ) and they told me
With your current times you will need to attend one of our bridge programs before you will be considered for an interview. We currently have programs in place with RAA, CAE, Jet U, FlightSafety, Skyline Aeronautics, WMU, Gulfstream, ATP, UND, and Embry-Riddle. The school you choose is up to you. Please let me know if you have any questions. I look forward to hearing from you in the future.
it seems that they want these things.
however, i could never afford 35,000 after all the money I spent getting my other ratings. It can be done without just like it it can be with it. I rather spend that 35,000 and go rent a seminole with a friend and fly across the country E-W-S-N and have hundreds of actual flying in all kinds of conditions... hell, for 70 grand, I can't imagine the flying I can do, i could prolly fly across the world lol