Long Distances in Light Aircraft

hambone

hambone

Well-Known Member
Hey guys,

The hits just keep on coming over here at my school in Korea. First it was icing, now it's ridiculously long range flights without refueling. Am I unnecessarily stressing out flying for 5 and 1/2 hours in a Cessna 172 without refueling? It's a G1000, and I've had it leaned to about 7 gph on some flights, and 9 on others, at altitudes ranging from 7,000 to 9,000. This is according to the gph indicator. Let's say it does about 8 gallons an hour.

How many of you are ok with a flight like this?
 
Depends on the amount of fuel you have. There are 172's with 35 gals and 65 gals. I've done 5.5hr in a 48 gal version with a 150hp O-320. Puts me right at my vfr reserves. And then verified by fuel receipt.
 
z987k said:
Depends on the amount of fuel you have. There are 172's with 35 gals and 65 gals. I've done 5.5hr in a 48 gal version with a 150hp O-320. Puts me right at my vfr reserves. And then verified by fuel receipt.
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If it's a G1000 172, its 56 gallons (53 usable). I'd have no problem going 5 hours in a 172 in a low cruise, from a fuel standpoint. However, I'd want to get the heck out of the plane long before 5 hours.
 
hambone said:
It's an S model with 53 usable. And it's an IFR flight.
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Well I'd confirm what it really burns via a refuel and known time, then go off of that. I know mine has 6.0 in it and I'll be gliding unless I pull the power way back.
 
You'll want to verify this yourself for your airplane, but usually the fuel computer in the G1000 is spot on. Provided you plan to land with reserves, I would have no concerns. If it helps, those three 'unusable' gallons exist in the most unfavourable flight condition. In cruise, you can probably use most of them. Not that you want to, but if you feel like pretending to yourself you have an extra half hour in addition to your planned reserve, that might make you feel better.
 
I've done 8.4 without refueling.... but I had an aux tank in the baggage compartment... 150 HP 172... and two gatorade bottles later.
 
I'd very much watch the winds and have an out if the winds are worse than predicted. Though that should be easy enough in a G1000.
 
The unanswered question is why you are allowing such flights? If it makes you uncomfortable re: fuel reserves, why? Either you don't accurately know the fuel burn or you put up with marginal flight safety. Is it plane or pilot perfomance?
 
I think it all depends on where you are flying, in the US I would not have any problems flying like that (not sure about Korea), there are airports everywhere and fuel is also easy to find in case something happens (WX,...).
 
Yes, but he's a CFI and presumably he's talking of dual instruction flights with primary to advanced students. Should that make a difference?

I once tagged along with a pilot in training for his commercial. We agreed I would do the W&B calcs. Otherwise, it was his flight on a short x/c out and back. At the destination I reminded the pilot we needed to refuel. He acknowledged then surprised me by taxiing back out for immediate takeoff. We returned to our original departure airport and I watched the lineman refuel to within ounces of useable fuel capacity. That pilot's CFI tried to give me the 3rd degree to which I responded, Your student was PIC.

What is going through the minds of students and how does the CFI affect that? The pilot in question, the son of a current 121 pilot, had no idea or concern for how close he came to becoing a statistic.
 
RICHARD5 said:
The unanswered question is why you are allowing such flights? If it makes you uncomfortable re: fuel reserves, why? Either you don't accurately know the fuel burn or you put up with marginal flight safety. Is it plane or pilot perfomance?
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FYI, I have not done the flight yet. I made this post because I wanted to see what other JC'ers thought of the situation, and whether or not my concern for doing such a flight is overreacting. I fly in Korea, and there are an extremely limited amount of airports that have 100 LL; maybe 4 in the entire country. Refusing to do such a flight would probably cost me my job, and being that there is a Korean instructor who has already done the flight (and who would lick his bosses boots if told to), me refusing looks bad I guess. Is it so wrong to be concerned with doing such a lengthy flight with little chance of landing and refueling at a nearby apt if the you know what hits the fan? So, to answer your question, I have not allowed the flight (it is coming up on a lesson in the near future). It is the chief pilot who is enforcing the flight.
 
7.0 seems a bit low... watch those temps.

I've comfortably done a 4hr leg between Macon, GA and LEX on a day with nasty winds. It was pretty low when we got to LEX with proper leaning. YMMV.
 
hambone said:
FYI, I have not done the flight yet. I made this post because I wanted to see what other JC'ers thought of the situation, and whether or not my concern for doing such a flight is overreacting. I fly in Korea, and there are an extremely limited amount of airports that have 100 LL; maybe 4 in the entire country. Refusing to do such a flight would probably cost me my job, and being that there is a Korean instructor who has already done the flight (and who would lick his bosses boots if told to), me refusing looks bad I guess. Is it so wrong to be concerned with doing such a lengthy flight with little chance of landing and refueling at a nearby apt if the you know what hits the fan? So, to answer your question, I have not allowed the flight (it is coming up on a lesson in the near future). It is the chief pilot who is enforcing the flight.
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If you have the legal reserves, weather, etc. I think that you NEED to do it. It has to be safe and legal. I see a lot of value in pushing the comfort zone, expanding your horizons and increasing your confidence. After all, 121 airliners don't take off with the tanks topped. This is a chance for you to really figure out your fuel burns/calculations etc. (read- continue learning) Just make sure you bring along some empty gatorade bottles. I prefer the wide mouth kind:yup:
 
Tell them to suck it and come back to PHX. At least here the pressure to fly is only implied and not enforced :)
 
Long range tanks? Don't sweat it, I've flown an R model capable of going 7 hours running it 100 ROP...Standard tanks, I wouldn't be so comfortable, even if you have it burning 6.5-7, still way to close for me.
What are Korean fuel requirements anyway?
 
hambone said:
FYI, I have not done the flight yet. I made this post because I wanted to see what other JC'ers thought of the situation, and whether or not my concern for doing such a flight is overreacting. I fly in Korea, and there are an extremely limited amount of airports that have 100 LL; maybe 4 in the entire country. Refusing to do such a flight would probably cost me my job, and being that there is a Korean instructor who has already done the flight (and who would lick his bosses boots if told to), me refusing looks bad I guess. Is it so wrong to be concerned with doing such a lengthy flight with little chance of landing and refueling at a nearby apt if the you know what hits the fan? So, to answer your question, I have not allowed the flight (it is coming up on a lesson in the near future). It is the chief pilot who is enforcing the flight.
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You're PIC, if your gut tells you no, tell 'em to go screw themselves. Just because the other guy did it fine does not mean it will go fine the next time. Who knows, maybe he had a 30 knot tailwind.
 
RICHARD5 said:
Yes, but he's a CFI and presumably he's talking of dual instruction flights with primary to advanced students. Should that make a difference?

I once tagged along with a pilot in training for his commercial. We agreed I would do the W&B calcs. Otherwise, it was his flight on a short x/c out and back. At the destination I reminded the pilot we needed to refuel. He acknowledged then surprised me by taxiing back out for immediate takeoff. We returned to our original departure airport and I watched the lineman refuel to within ounces of useable fuel capacity. That pilot's CFI tried to give me the 3rd degree to which I responded, Your student was PIC.

What is going through the minds of students and how does the CFI affect that? The pilot in question, the son of a current 121 pilot, had no idea or concern for how close he came to becoing a statistic.
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And yet you were in the plane with him? Who was the one with more experience, you or him? Most senior pilot in the plane can be blamed for any accident regardless who said they were PIC.
 
hambone said:
FYI, I have not done the flight yet. I made this post because I wanted to see what other JC'ers thought of the situation, and whether or not my concern for doing such a flight is overreacting. I fly in Korea, and there are an extremely limited amount of airports that have 100 LL; maybe 4 in the entire country. Refusing to do such a flight would probably cost me my job, and being that there is a Korean instructor who has already done the flight (and who would lick his bosses boots if told to), me refusing looks bad I guess. Is it so wrong to be concerned with doing such a lengthy flight with little chance of landing and refueling at a nearby apt if the you know what hits the fan? So, to answer your question, I have not allowed the flight (it is coming up on a lesson in the near future). It is the chief pilot who is enforcing the flight.
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Just because you've never done something like this before doesn't mean it's dangerous. It may be outside of your comfort zone, but that is a reason to embrace the job, not run away from it.
 
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