Logging time in a jet when not type rated

[Atooraya]

The flight school i fly for also charters airplanes.

Well, we own a Citation I and II and do a lot of part 91 trips so no SIC pilot is required.

The school allows it's instructors to hop in the jet and sit right seat, but my question is how should this be logged? The pilot flying has his ATP so he has the power to endorse my logbook, but they usually say "don't worry about it, just log it as SIC"

what exactly is the ruling here?

 

[casey]

read the part of 61.51 pertaining to logging of second in command time. If you meet those requirements then log away. Note though that if no SIC is required by part 91, then you cant log it. That is one of the requirements you'll find in there. If you are logging SIC during the 135 legs you are digging yourself a hole.

 

[Atooraya]

read the part of 61.51 pertaining to logging of second in command time. If you meet those requirements then log away. Note though that if no SIC is required by part 91, then you cant log it. That is one of the requirements you'll find in there. If you are logging SIC during the 135 legs you are digging yourself a hole.

what's crazy is that the captain told me that if something failed during flight, like the boom mic, then we'd need an SIC.

I still didn't fill in the SIC column though, and just logged it as dual given with his full name, just no endorsement

all that matters is i need maybe 25 more hours in the II and i'll have enough multi time to fly for the same charter company

 

[Timbuff10]

So just being an ATP means you can give dual given? I thought you needed a CFI ticket to give dual out?

 

[casey]

what's crazy is that the captain told me that if something failed during flight, like the boom mic, then we'd need an SIC.

I still didn't fill in the SIC column though, and just logged it as dual given with his full name, just no endorsement

all that matters is i need maybe 25 more hours in the II and i'll have enough multi time to fly for the same charter company

if you are getting those 25 hours from logging this phantom time in the jet, be careful. An ATP cannot just log dual in your logbook, and furthermore if its not signed its not dual. What an ATP can log as dual is training given in "air transport service" in an aircraft he is appropriatley rated in. You riding along on part 91 legs and having him log dual is very sketchy, might as well be pencil whipping the logbook, as thats all you're doing essentially. If an ATP wants to do anything but this very narrow interpretation of instruction, he needs to hold an MEI/CFI. Either way, he needs to be signing your logbook or this time does not exist.

If you can legitimatley say he is providing instruction in flying that jet in the service of the company, and you can legally (FAR's, not insurance) perform the flying you are being "trained" to do, then you can probably get away with logging the ATP instruction, but i'd be wary of it. And again, he needs to sign it. A logbook entry logged as only Total and Dual with no signature does not exist, as the signature is the basis to log dual, and the dual was the basis for the total time. no signature == no time.

 

[Atooraya]

61.157


(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.
(b) An airline transport pilot may instruct—
(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

 

[Atooraya]

if you are getting those 25 hours from logging this phantom time in the jet, be careful. An ATP cannot just log dual in your logbook, and furthermore if its not signed its not dual. What an ATP can log as dual is training given in "air transport service" in an aircraft he is appropriatley rated in. You riding along on part 91 legs and having him log dual is very sketchy, might as well be pencil whipping the logbook, as thats all you're doing essentially. If an ATP wants to do anything but this very narrow interpretation of instruction, he needs to hold an MEI/CFI. Either way, he needs to be signing your logbook or this time does not exist.

If you can legitimatley say he is providing instruction in flying that jet in the service of the company, and you can legally (FAR's, not insurance) perform the flying you are being "trained" to do, then you can probably get away with logging the ATP instruction, but i'd be wary of it. And again, he needs to sign it. A logbook entry logged as only Total and Dual with no signature does not exist, as the signature is the basis to log dual, and the dual was the basis for the total time. no signature == no time.

when we were flying, we were basically doing the PF; PNF whole shpeel, and during cruise, he would explain systems and what so.

he has his CFI, but it's expired. Essentially, my company will pay for me to go to simuflight to get my type rating

 

[casey]

So just being an ATP means you can give dual given? I thought you needed a CFI ticket to give dual out?

under very limited circumstances an ATP may log dual instruction, but as i understand it is limited to ATP operations, the type of things a check airman would typically be doing. There are also some provisions somewhere to allow an SIC to log as 'Performing the duties of a PIC while being monitored by the PIC' for ATP time mins or something to that effect. not very familiar with it to be honest.

 

[casey]

when we were flying, we were basically doing the PF; PNF whole shpeel, and during cruise, he would explain systems and what so.

he has his CFI, but it's expired. Essentially, my company will pay for me to go to simuflight to get my type rating

yea, but on your 91 legs are you in "air transportation service" ? any interpretation of that reg will hinge on the definition of that term, as the FAA sees it.

If the company is going to pay for a type, just go get it and dont bother with the sketchy SIC time, the examiner that administers your type ride is going to see that stuff you know.

 

[Atooraya]

under very limited circumstances an ATP may log dual instruction, but as i understand it is limited to ATP operations, the type of things a check airman would typically be doing. There are also some provisions somewhere to allow an SIC to log as 'Performing the duties of a PIC while being monitored by the PIC' for ATP time mins or something to that effect. not very familiar with it to be honest.

all of the time that i'm trying to build up to is to fly 135 for my company.

he's one of the 5 captains for my company (which is small, about 8 jets), so if he says it's good enough, i would love to just smile and nod, but i don't want it to bite me in the ass if i don't have anywhere to turn to later

 

[Atooraya]

yea, but on your 91 legs are you in "air transportation service" ? any interpretation of that reg will hinge on the definition of that term, as the FAA sees it.

If the company is going to pay for a type, just go get it and dont bother with the sketchy SIC time, the examiner that administers your type ride is going to see that stuff you know.

actually, we are, because we're flying the owner's family around and what so :/

it's really difficult, and confusing at the same time.

what kinda bugs me is when i ask him to just endorse my logbook, he says "just log it as SIC time, something was broken during the flight so i needed you to be there" or something along the lines of that

the point is, the only person who would be getting hurt is me for logging the time

 

[meritflyer]

read the part of 61.51 pertaining to logging of second in command time. If you meet those requirements then log away. Note though that if no SIC is required by part 91, then you cant log it. That is one of the requirements you'll find in there. If you are logging SIC during the 135 legs you are digging yourself a hole.

Thats not 100% correct. There are fractional ownership exceptions operated under 91 that allow single pilot certificated aircraft to be flown by a 2 pilot crew with both pilots logging SIC and PIC respectively.

 

[Atooraya]

this is so damn confusing!!!!

me and another CFI-I friend of mine are just gonna go put down $1500 a piece for a block rate for a piper seminole and fly around and get about 30 hours in a seminole and log it back and forth as dual given and recevied.

It's $180/hr for a piper seminole, so:
$1500+2=$3000.
-5% discount for block plan = $2750.
-10% AOPA credit card = $2475.
Not to shabby, and much easier to log!

 

[casey]

Thats not 100% correct. There are fractional ownership exceptions operated under 91 that allow single pilot certificated aircraft to be flown by a 2 pilot crew with both pilots logging SIC and PIC respectively.

true, but being this thread concerns a 135 op w/ the occasional 91 leg, i didnt see the need to bring up the intricacies of the new(ish) subpart K to part 91.

back to the OP, my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) is that the SIC time is bogus if hes just telling you to log it in a single pilot airplane (and he is single pilot typed). If he would rather you do this than provide "ATP instruction" and endorse your logbook, that should tell you his opinion of the validity of that line of thought.

 

[casey]

this is so damn confusing!!!!

me and another CFI-I friend of mine are just gonna go put down $1500 a piece for a block rate for a piper seminole and fly around and get about 30 hours in a seminole and log it back and forth as dual given and recevied.

Not to shabby, and much easier to log!

splitting the time as PIC/PIC or PIC/SIC (one of you under the hood) will look a lot better than 2 guys giving eachother dual. How are you going to justify that dual time in an interview? What purpose will it serve. Splitting safety pilot time is an accepted practice, logging dual for the sake of splitting time is not so much.

 

[Atooraya]

splitting the time as PIC/PIC or PIC/SIC (one of you under the hood) will look a lot better than 2 guys giving eachother dual. How are you going to justify that dual time in an interview? What purpose will it serve. Splitting safety pilot time is an accepted practice, logging dual for the sake of splitting time is not so much.

30 hours of safety pilot? that's a damn lot of approaches!

we may do that though, as well as give each other IPC's

 

[casey]

30 hours of safety pilot? that's a damn lot of approaches!

we may do that though, as well as give each other IPC's

not so many approaches if you fly a 3 hour trip between them. if you are going to buy 30 hours of seminole time at least get out of the practice area and go somewhere.

 

[Atooraya]

not so many approaches if you fly a 3 hour trip between them. if you are going to buy 30 hours of seminole time at least get out of the practice area and go somewhere.

oh we are

we're both riddle grads, so we're really anal about logging time and really picky even to the .1 :/

 

[Timbuff10]

me and another CFI-I friend of mine are just gonna go put down $1500 a piece for a block rate for a piper seminole and fly around and get about 30 hours in a seminole and log it back and forth as dual given and recevied.

If you are going to do that kind of thing you may as well save the money and write the time in your logbook right now. Some of your practices seem a bit shady from what I have read tonight.

 

[Atooraya]

If you are going to do that kind of thing you may as well save the money and write the time in your logbook right now. Some of your practices seem a bit shady from what I have read tonight.

if i were to do that, don't you think i wouldn't even be asking about how to log time?

and how is it shady to split operating costs with another person who can act as a safety pilot or an instructor?


on a side not, i just logged 24 hrs of x-country time on flight simulator 2004 in a cessna 172 as PIC time. I'm just gonna do this for another 2 weeks and i'll have enough time to apply for United :nana2: