Logging SIC in Citation II

[dustoff17]

I don't think the 500 type provides for an "SP Exemption". That comes into play with certain of the 560 models. In the 500 and 525 series, I believe you are either typed SP... or not. Upon receiving the type as a single pilot, your new certificate will have CE-500S, or CE-525S listed in your type rating list. Therefore, if your PIC is carrying his certificate, he's qualified as SP.

Actually there is a 500 type SP exemption via an FFA letter; that's what started this thread.

However, you cannot be typed as a C500S because the plane is Type Certificated (Aircraft Data Sheet) as a TWO-pilot aircraft. If you are performing single pilot operations in a 500 Series aircraft, your Certificate will reflect "CE500". THEN, you must receive an evaluation as to your ability to perform single pilot duties in order to receive an Exemption Letter. This letter MUST be carried as @MidlifeFlyer mentions above.

IF the CE500 pilot chooses to not carry the exemption letter, then two pilots are required for flight per the Aircraft Data Sheet. If he carries it, then only one pilot is required, therefore, only one pilot can log time regardless of whether there is an SIC present or not.

The CE525 is different because it is type certificated as a SINGLE-pilot aircraft.

I can get a CE525 type rating and every one of my CJ flights must include two pilots; both may log time. Once I add the "S" to my Pilot Certificate, things change.

P.S. There is no such Exemption Letter for the CE525. If you want to fly it single pilot, then you have to go get the "S" addition on your Pilot Certificate

 

[TrustMeI'maPilot]

I don't think the 500 type provides for an "SP Exemption". That comes into play with certain of the 560 models. In the 500 and 525 series, I believe you are either typed SP... or not. Upon receiving the type as a single pilot, your new certificate will have CE-500S, or CE-525S listed in your type rating list. Therefore, if your PIC is carrying his certificate, he's qualified as SP.

The 525 is the only citation with a S type rating. All others, including the 500, need an exemption.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Actually there is a 500 type SP exemption via an FFA letter; that's what started this thread.

However, you cannot be typed as a C500S because the plane is Type Certificated (Aircraft Data Sheet) as a TWO-pilot aircraft. If you are performing single pilot operations in a 500 Series aircraft, your Certificate will reflect "CE500". THEN, you must receive an evaluation as to your ability to perform single pilot duties in order to receive an Exemption Letter. This letter MUST be carried as @MidlifeFlyer mentions above.

IF the CE500 pilot chooses to not carry the exemption letter, then two pilots are required for flight per the Aircraft Data Sheet. If he carries it, then only one pilot is required, therefore, only one pilot can log time regardless of whether there is an SIC present or not.

The CE525 is different because it is type certificated as a SINGLE-pilot aircraft.

I can get a CE525 type rating and every one of my CJ flights must include two pilots; both may log time. Once I add the "S" to my Pilot Certificate, things change.

P.S. There is no such Exemption Letter for the CE525. If you want to fly it single pilot, then you have to go get the "S" addition on your Pilot Certificate

Copy. Thanks. I did not understand the 500 series worked that way.

 

[dustoff17]

The 525 and the 510 are the only citations with a S type rating. Aircraft that qualify, including the 500, need an exemption.

FIFY...…..

 

[jrh]

How about this. The industry is so good right now, go take a damn job in an airplane that requires two pilots and is going to advance your career and pay more than a citation II.

No offense but it’s 2019 - Citation II time isn’t doing much for your future or making you stand out amongst your peers. Money is money and we all have to pay the bills but if I were in your shoes I would be actively seeking employment in a more relevant type where I didn’t have to wonder if Tom in the left seat has his single pilot paperwork today.

Wow. Settle down.

The OP's profile says he has 180 hours.

Most 180 hour pilots are excited to be flying anything with more than four seats, let alone a multiengine jet.

Kudos to the OP for having an intelligent question, and congrats on getting a great opportunity early in your career. Enjoy it and learn from it, no matter how you log the time!

 

[TrustMeI'maPilot]

FIFY...…..

Oh yeah, you’re correct, forgot about the 510.

 

[dustoff17]

Wow. Settle down.

The OP's profile says he has 180 hours.

Most 180 hour pilots are excited to be flying anything with more than four seats, let alone a multiengine jet.

Kudos to the OP for having an intelligent question, and congrats on getting a great opportunity early in your career. Enjoy it and learn from it, no matter how you log the time!

Agree!
All things being equal and assuming the OP and Pilot "B" WANT to work for the airlines, this will come into play. If the OP and "B" both have 1,500 hours but 1,000 of the OP's is turbojet time, while "B's" is piston with a little turboprop time tossed in, the OP is going to the top of the stack!!

@tmb1998 hope this answered your question. I think a sit down with your PIC will work in favor of you both. good luck and enjoy...…..

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Wow. Settle down.

The OP's profile says he has 180 hours.

Most 180 hour pilots are excited to be flying anything with more than four seats, let alone a multiengine jet.

Kudos to the OP for having an intelligent question, and congrats on getting a great opportunity early in your career. Enjoy it and learn from it, no matter how you log the time!

Racking up SIC time in a jet seems to me like part of a pretty good ATP strategy.

 

[Corporate Pilot]

Just to add to the mix. There are two 500 series that are single pilot airplanes, the 501 and the 551. The 551 has it's gross weight limited to 12,500lbs other wise it is the basically the same as a 550. Plus there are a few 500's maybe some 550's that have STC's allowing them to be flow SP as long as the pilot's certificate does not state SIC required. The CE500 can be a hard to understand type rating.

My first type was in the CE500 back in 1986. I only flew it for 2 years and then got back into them in 2003. Flew an S550 for 4 years as a crew and then started flying an Ultra under Presto Sim's exemption in 2007. All of the exemptions are similar excerpt for the airplanes they cover., I have had 5 different exemptions. I had one that covered all of them from the 500 up to the Encore+, that one was done in the airplane. My current one, CAE, covers from the 500 to the Ultra except the Bravo. The CE500 type covers the 500, 501, 550, S550, 551, Bravo, Ultra, Encore and Encore+. There was also a 552? that the military had but I was told all of those burned in a hangar fire.


Most of the exemptions/waivers require.

* 1st or 2nd class medical
*ATP or Commercial certificate
*CE500 Type Rating
*1000 hours total time
*50 hours night
*75 hours instrument (40 actual)
*500 hours as a PIC or SIC in turbine powered aircraft
* 3 take-offs and landings in the preceding 90 days in a 500 series aircraft

 

[dustoff17]

Just to add to the mix. There are two 500 series that are single pilot airplanes, the 501 and the 551. The 551 has it's gross weight limited to 12,500lbs other wise it is the basically the same as a 550. Plus there are a few 500's maybe some 550's that have STC's allowing them to be flow SP as long as the pilot's certificate does not state SIC required. The CE500 can be a hard to understand type rating.

My first type was in the CE500 back in 1986. I only flew it for 2 years and then got back into them in 2003. Flew an S550 for 4 years as a crew and then started flying an Ultra under Presto Sim's exemption in 2007. All of the exemptions are similar excerpt for the airplanes they cover., I have had 5 different exemptions. I had one that covered all of them from the 500 up to the Encore+, that one was done in the airplane. My current one, CAE, covers from the 500 to the Ultra except the Bravo. The CE500 type covers the 500, 501, 550, S550, 551, Bravo, Ultra, Encore and Encore+. There was also a 552? that the military had but I was told all of those burned in a hangar fire.


Most of the exemptions/waivers require.

* 1st or 2nd class medical
*ATP or Commercial certificate
*CE500 Type Rating
*1000 hours total time
*50 hours night
*75 hours instrument (40 actual)
*500 hours as a PIC or SIC in turbine powered aircraft
* 3 take-offs and landings in the preceding 90 days in a 500 series aircraft

Ah, I didn't know about the 501 & 551. Thank you for the clarification.

The Navy version was the T-47, I think used for fighter training. I was at Forbes Field in Topeka, KS the day of that fire. All but one aircraft was parked in the same WWII vintage hangar. The hangar was getting a new hot tar roof. the crew all went to lunch and left some equipment running. The entire hangar went up in flames, collapsed, and destroyed the whole lot. The garbage of this one is that a relative of the Airport Manager was the contractor for the "no-bid" job. He has no license (?) and no bonding insurance. Nice, huh?

Cessna had the only remaining 552 for years after as a test bed and a chase plane for the Flight Test/Experimental Department. I'm pretty sure it was disassembled when Cessna was finished with it (could be wrong on this one)

 

[Corporate Pilot]

Ah, I didn't know about the 501 & 551. Thank you for the clarification.

The Navy version was the T-47, I think used for fighter training. I was at Forbes Field in Topeka, KS the day of that fire. All but one aircraft was parked in the same WWII vintage hangar. The hangar was getting a new hot tar roof. the crew all went to lunch and left some equipment running. The entire hangar went up in flames, collapsed, and destroyed the whole lot. The garbage of this one is that a relative of the Airport Manager was the contractor for the "no-bid" job. He has no license (?) and no bonding insurance. Nice, huh?

Cessna had the only remaining 552 for years after as a test bed and a chase plane for the Flight Test/Experimental Department. I'm pretty sure it was disassembled when Cessna was finished with it (could be wrong on this one)

Just to back you up.

ASN Aircraft accident Cessna T-47A Citation II N12859 Topeka-Forbes Field, KS (FOE)

A Cessna T-47A Citation II plane, registered N12859, was damaged beyond repair in an occurrence at Topeka-Forbes Field, KS (FOE), United States of America. All crew members survived.

aviation-safety.net

"Hangar 626 at Topeka-Forbes Field was leased by Cessna Aircraft Company for storage of a number of Cessna Citation jets. In July 1993 the owners of the hangar decided to replace the roof of the hangar. During the application of a rubber roof to replace the existing wooden roof, which involved using a propane torch, a fire started which eventually engulfed the hangar and destroyed 13 airplanes."

Thank you for making me research it. I think I do remember Cessna using the remaining 552 for flight testing.