Logging question - Piper Dakota

WindyCityPilot

WindyCityPilot

Well-Known Member
I've got a question about logging time in a Piper Dakota. I do not have my high performance or complex endorsement yet. I assume that I cannot log any PIC time in the Dakota without a high performance endorsement...correct? Do I also need my complex? I went flying with the owner of the Dakota last ngiht and did most of the flying but I don't want to log it if can't do it legally without the proper endorsements.

Thanks!! Andy
 
Andy,
All you need to log time in the Dakota is a high-performance endorsement since its engine's horsepower is more than 200 hp. You only need a complex endorsement if the plane has a controllable-pitch prop, retractable landing gear, and flaps. Hope this helps!

Nate
 
You need a high performance endorsement to log PIC time in a high performance aircraft. The Dakota is not a complex aircraft. It lacks retractable landing gear, regardless of the fact that it has a constant speed propeller. The Dakota isan awesome airplane, lots of power and it can haul more than you can load into it.
 
roundout said:
you can log PIC if you were the sole manipulator of the controls.
Click to expand...

What the . . .

Roundout, if there's no CFI on board, and he doesn't have a HP endorsement, what makes you believe that he can log PIC time?

How do we keep finding ourselves in the same spot?
 
cuz you need the HP to ACT as PIC. you don't need anything but a plain jane PP-ASEL to LOG PIC in a dakota. you're rated in category and class. 61.51.

would i log it? no. could i? yes.
 
roundout said:
cuz you need the HP to ACT as PIC. you don't need anything but a plain jane PP-ASEL to LOG PIC in a dakota. you're rated in category and class. 61.51.
Click to expand...

That's almost like me saying that I could log Multi-Engine PIC time if I ride in a 747 (sans type rating) in the right seat.

The FAA would clean you out.
 
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages/2656.html

read the letter directed to Mr. David Reid halfway down.

i'm just trying to help the OP, not get in to hypotheticals. as i said, i wouldn't log it. why not? does an hour here or there really matter? it sounds like the owner of the dakota was trying to give the OP a treat. if the OP is looking to log it, great. more power to him. i'd thank the owner for the opportunity and go home happy, but that's me.
 
None of the scenarios listed there apply to this situation. Was anybody under the hood? Was there instrument training going on?

Did I miss that part? It's possible . . .
 
Although there are two definitions for PIC. One definition is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is who has authority and responsibility over the flight. As a CFII/MEI I would log you as dual received only. Doing this is the best way to stay out of trouble and leaves no room for interpetation. I suspect that the majority of CFI's do the same.
 
"In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether there are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two Private Pilots may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the time as) Pilot In Command?" The answer is two private pilots may not simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain circumstances, simultaneously log PIC time.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 deals with logging PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51 only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience.

Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please find two prior FAA interpretations concerning logging of PIC time. We hope that these will be of further assistance to you."
 
I like referencing Midlifeflyer's FAQ for these types of questions (thanks Mark!):
Rule 1. If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. [61.51(e)(1)(i)]

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, or tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.
Click to expand...

He cannot ACT as PIC, but he can LOG PIC in the Dakota.

(Mark's FAQ Logging Rule 1)

As far as your 747 example, no, you cannot ME PIC time since you are not rated in that aircraft (type rating required).
 
MTSU... I'm going with Steve!

As long as the other pilot in the plane has high performance, then the other person IS THE PIC.

BUT
You may log any time you were the sole manipulator of the controls as pic time since you are rated for the airplane (catagory and class).

How come we go through this every few weeks? LOGGING PIC and ACTING PIC are two totally different things.
 
bob loblaw said:
Although there are two definitions for PIC. One definition is sole manipulator of the controls and the other is who has authority and responsibility over the flight. As a CFII/MEI I would log you as dual received only. Doing this is the best way to stay out of trouble and leaves no room for interpetation. I suspect that the majority of CFI's do the same.
Click to expand...

Why are you short changing yourself?

"61.51 (c) (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor."

Anytime you are acting as a CFI/CFII/MEI log it as PIC time!
 
mtsu_av8er said:
What the . . .

Roundout, if there's no CFI on board, and he doesn't have a HP endorsement, what makes you believe that he can log PIC time?

How do we keep finding ourselves in the same spot?
Click to expand...
beats me. It's been discussed enough. Roundout is absolutely 100% correct. And the FAA has been incredibly consistent about it for more than 20 years. From my FAQ:

==============================
Rule 1. If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. [61.51(e)(1)(I)]

"Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, or tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions.

***
Keep them straight
Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging Part 61 PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.
==============================

Endorsements are required to take the responsibility of being in command of the flight, not for writing numbers in the PIC column of a logbook.
 
It is indeed interesting how we keep coming back to this. For me personally (and this is just how I do my own logbook), I don't log PIC in anything I can't act as PIC in. Sure this is more conservative than what the FAA allows, and again, it's only the way I personally do it for me. Maybe it's because I don't need PIC time, or maybe it's for some other reason. But the fact remains that acting vs logging are indeed two different animals (which I still don't understand the logic behind....I know the definitions, just not the logic behind that FAA rule). Example: I've got about 14 hours in F-16s.....maybe 7 of which are as sole-manipulator. I log them as total time, but not as any sort of PIC. Even though I'm jet rated, I'm not an F-16 MDS-qualed pilot (even though the jet has no type rating). For me, considering acting and logging as one and the same for logging purposes keeps a neater and tidier logbook, especially if any time is ever questioned or inquired about.......one standard keeps it easy to explain.

Again, it's just how I manage my own personal logbook, and is simply one man's opinion on the whole matter. One is obviously still fully legal to log as sole manipulator when qualed in cat/class.
 
MikeD said:
Maybe it's because I don't need PIC time
Click to expand...
That would be an excellent reason. After all, there are a number of purposes to logging, but let's face it - "pure logging" under the regs has only one - To show the FAA that you qualify for certificates, ratings and are current. "Logged" PIC is really nothing more than the FAA saying "We decided to let you count this time toward the requirements for a certificate or rating." (Before the FAR, the CAR used to call it "solo" time meaning "sole manipulator" not "only person in the aircraft". Probably caused it's own set of communication problems)

Don't need it? Who cares if you don't log it? Already got 100 hours of "real" PIC time* when you head for the commercial certificate? Guess it doesn't matter if not one bit of it is while receiving instruction for your instrument rating or flying a leg of a cross country in your dad's Mooney. But if you haven't reached that goal, seems kind of silly to say, "Nope. I don't care if it costs me twice as much time and money. I'm not going to count the time the FAA says I'm allowed to count."

(*there is a caveat to logging only "real PIC" time if you need PIC time for certificates and ratings. Just as you don't need to "act as" PIC in order to "log PIC", there are times - admittedly few - when "acting as PIC" cannot be counted as PIC time under the FAA's logging rules)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top