BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Wow. So the CFI's at UND dont have enough professional integrity to do what is right and validated by law? Wow. And I thought the guys that went to Riddle were bad.
Logging PIC time during Instrument training
- Thread starter FlyingOfficer
- Start date
poser765
Well-Known Member
PIC Endorsement?
FlyingOfficer
New Member
I figured it was typical UND BS. Prior to this course, I was at one of the satellite schools/flight training centers, where I always logged PIC, since I already had my Private. Now all of a sudden I come to the main campus in GFK and they're trying to dictate how I log my time.
Point well taken.
Which is exactly what I am now doing.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
AC 61-65E, Appendix 1
62. To act as PIC of an aircraft in solo operations when the pilot does not hold an appropriate category/class rating: section 61.31(d)(3).
I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the training as required by section 61.31(d)(3) to serve as a PIC in a (category and class of aircraft). I have determined that he/she is prepared to serve as PIC in that (make and model of aircraft). /s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321 CFI Exp. 12-31-05
poser765
Well-Known Member
hmm, Interesting. Can someone give me a practical example of when this endorsement would be needed?
tgrayson
New Member
Why do you think so?
I held a commercial rotorcraft certificate and was training to add airplane single-engine to my certificate. Since I wasn't a student pilot, those solo endorsements don't apply. In order to fly solo I got this endorsement.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
I have one. Any time you have a solo requirement, or PIC requirement for adding an additional category or class. Since you are already a certificated pilot, you can't get another student certificate.
So, say you had a commercial rotorcraft certificate and were adding ASEL. Your instructor would give you this endorsement such that you could solo. Adding a commercial glider category also has both minimum PIC and solo time requirements.
Unlike solo endorsements, they don't expire after 90 days.
Only thing I'm not sure of - if you have an instrument helicopter ticket, would this endorsement cover you to fly instrument airplane solo? (my guess is no, but maybe not. The FAA is talking about adding a combined private/instrument practical test - this is the only scenario I can imagine it would be for.)
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
I think a PIC endorsement should, by definition, allow one to log PIC time. Can only be done solo though.
tgrayson
New Member
One would think, but there is no regulation that supports this point of view.
Exactly. The regulation that supports this is 61.51(e)(2), although it doesn't explicitly say you need the endorsement, just be alone in the airplane.
juxtapilot
Snowflake
Some, not all. I think they don't understand why students are allowed to log PIC. They are being told by their cheif instructors to only log as Dual given.
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
I know what you're saying. The Chief Instructors have sold their aviation "souls" for their positions and now spread false truths. Its disgusting.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
65.51 1(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
The endorsement sounds an awful lot like privileges to me.
tgrayson
New Member
That language was added when the sport pilot certificate was created, so that's the intended application. It hasn't yet been interpreted to have any other meaning, although it could happen.
That was the old way under the FAR 61 if you were a student pilot prior to PPL, couldn't log PIC....just solo/dual. Long since changed. In my first logbook, all my student pilot time prior to PPL has no PIC logged (not that I particularly care now).
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I see this on a regular basis. Pilot has commercial/instrument RW-H getting a private airplane. They are not a student pilot so I use this endorsement with the addition of a time limit of 90 days... since there is no time limit on it and they can fly on it as long as they want without that limitation.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Link to the legal decision mentioned earlier upholding a 60 day suspension of a CFI certificate for failure to endorse a logbook.
Again, I don't care how a university or any other entity counts flight time; the logbook is the pilot's logbook, not the university's. A pilot should legally log the time then present it to the CFI for endorsement and for the entry of the instruction given, not the type of flight time. Any CFI who refuses to endorse the logbook does so at their own risk.
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/5213.PDF
Again, I don't care how a university or any other entity counts flight time; the logbook is the pilot's logbook, not the university's. A pilot should legally log the time then present it to the CFI for endorsement and for the entry of the instruction given, not the type of flight time. Any CFI who refuses to endorse the logbook does so at their own risk.
http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/5213.PDF
juxtapilot
Snowflake
We're talking post PPL training though. I don't think I logged PIC during private training (logged solo or dual) but UND's policy is that their students do not log PIC after private training, while being given dual instruction.
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
1. The regs aren't law. Laws are law, regs are regs. I know its just symantics but there is a difference and one should never be confused for the other IMO.
2. Be careful about questioning the professional integrity of anyone before you've walked a mile in their shoes.