Logging PIC time during Instrument training

F

FlyingOfficer

New Member
I'm currently a Private Pilot training for my Instrument Rating. I've had several flights under the hood performing instrument approaches, holding, and intercepting and tracking. According to my instructor, I should not log this as PIC time apparently because the airlines frown upon it since there is more than one PIC which is "impossible". I know for a fact that two pilots can log PIC time when one is acting as a safety pilot, so I know that it is possible, but do the airlines really frown upon it for some reason?

My understanding is, that after I have completed/logged 6 approaches (in an airplane/sim/FTD), I may begin logging PIC time while under the hood, as long as I remain current.

Am I mistaken?
 
FlyingOfficer said:
My understanding is, that after I have completed/logged 6 approaches (in an airplane/sim/FTD), I may begin logging PIC time while under the hood, as long as I remain current.
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Your reasoning is not correct here....currency has nothing at all to do with logging PIC. Check out the link in my signature for more info regarding this topic.
 
FlyingOfficer said:
According to my instructor, I should not log this as PIC time apparently because the airlines frown upon it since there is more than one PIC which is "impossible".
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If I were you I'd go out of my to find another instructor.
Instructors that perpetuate myths should be unemployed to the point of having to leave aviation. They do more damage more than an accident.
 
This is very simple.. If you are already private pilot.. YOU LOG THE FLIGHTS AS PIC.. unless you are in IMC conditions... a condition of flight which you are not yet rated for........ so you still log TT but not PIC in that case... for example...

You fly for 1.0.

You are under the hood for .8.

You fly into IMC for .4 of the .8 that you are under the hood

You log 1.0 TT.... .4 Simulated.... .4 Actual... and .8 PIC time. Make sense?
 
BTAcola said:
unless you are in IMC conditions... a condition of flight which you are not yet rated for.
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That isn't any more relevant than currency. You can log PIC time whenever 1) you're the sole manipulator of the controls and 2) you're rated in the airplane.
 
BajtheJino said:
If I were you I'd go out of my to find another instructor.
Instructors that perpetuate myths should be unemployed to the point of having to leave aviation. They do more damage more than an accident.
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It's not the instructors. It's UND's BS policy. They tell their instructors that their students are not to log PIC. To the OP: LOG PIC, according to the FAA, you are completely right to log your flight as PIC.


BTAcola said:
This is very simple.. If you are already private pilot.. YOU LOG THE FLIGHTS AS PIC.. unless you are in IMC conditions... a condition of flight which you are not yet rated for........ so you still log TT but not PIC in that case... for example...

You fly for 1.0.

You are under the hood for .8.

You fly into IMC for .4 of the .8 that you are under the hood

You log 1.0 TT.... .4 Simulated.... .4 Actual... and .8 PIC time. Make sense?
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Even if you are in IMC, you may log PIC. You are rated IN THE AIRCRAFT. You are sole manipulator of the controls you log PIC. This is the only time when a non-instrument rated pilot OR a non-current instrument pilot may log PIC while in actual IMC.

To the OP: This is UND's way of keeping you from leaving. If you do not log PIC and go elsewhere, you will have to re-do all that time you did during dual flights.
 
tgrayson said:
That doesn't make any sense. The student can always fill in the PIC column at a later date.
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Yes of course. I guess I didn't word that well. My point is that UND will try to make it seem like that would not be possible... You and I are in agreement here... Log the PIC. I'm just saying that UND will do almost anything to keep students from logging PIC, including teaching instructors to not log PIC. I heard from a lead flight instructor "airlines won't count flight time that is PIC and DUAL." You and I know that is total BS.

When I was at UND, I asked to log PIC. My instructor said "well do you feel you were PIC?" I said, "well I was controlling the aircraft so yea...?" Apparently that doesn't satisfy the higher ups at UND.
 
BajtheJino said:
If I were you I'd go out of my to find another instructor.
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I think that's a little rash. I've had a few CFIs over the years (one just last month) who have not filled in the PIC column in my logbook for an airplane in which I was rated, but because it was high performance or tailwheel, they didn't consider it PIC even though the FAA does. Instead of arguing with them, I just smiled, and then filled it in myself at the end of training.
 
FlyingOfficer said:
According to my instructor, I should not log this as PIC time apparently because the airlines frown upon it since there is more than one PIC which is "impossible".
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This is absolutely 100% true. Don't ever log PIC unless you're actually acting as PIC because some airlines might frown on it. And if you happen to apply to an airline that happens to frown on it, your career will be over and you'll never be able to fly again for work or pleasure.

In addition, don't ever allow alcohol to pass your lips because an airline might frown on that. Don't ever date or marry a blonde haired Jewish girl named Kate because you never know when the HR person at an airline might have had a really bad breakup with a blonde Jewish girl named Kate. Don't be a fan of Heavy Metal music or any other kind of music. Don't ever do anything that someone might mistake as being fun. Don't ever fly anything for pay unless it burns jet fuel. But don't build a bunch of hours flying non-commercial operations. Don't own or wear shorts or sandals. Don't watch any reality TV. In fact, don't watch TV. Don't do any of this because you just never know what an airline is going to frown on.

Or....

You could decide to live the life you're going to live. Keep your nose clean and build as much experience as you can. Log every single hour that the regs allow and keep both a paper and electronic logbook. Having the electronic log will allow you filter out any hours you like so you can easily give adjusted totals to any potential future employer.
 
Some random thoughts on logbooks in no particular order.
1. It's your logbook, not a flight schools, not a CFIs. As such, you are responsible for correctly logging time. It is a legal document and YOU are held liable for errors and falcifications, not your CFI. As a CFI I may help the student pilot figure out how to log the time; beyond that it is the pilot's responsibility. I may show/explain what the FARs say, but don't correct his logbook. I'm really fed up with CFIs crossing out PIC time logged by private pilots in tailwheel, complex and high performance airplanes and instrument training in which I give them instruction.
2. Different entities may have different ways of tracking time that are not IAW part 61. If so, that's fine- yet you must still log the flight time in your logbook IAW part 61. For example, the military counts certain time that the FAA does not recognize, flight time does not start until wheels up, and some flight time can not be double logged. For example, as an IP (instructor pilot) in the military I logged instructor time while evaluating from the jump seat. I had to log this time in order for there to be flight records that jibbed with training records. If there was training recorded, there needed to be a flight log to back it up. Even though the military tracked this time, I never logged it in my FAA logbook. I could log only night or IMC in the military, not both. My FAA logbook shows both.
A school may have a very good reason for not logging this time as PIC in their records. What the school tracks has no impact on what you may log. If your time is legal as PIC, log it as such in your logbook.
3. The CFI is signing off on the training performed, not the type of flight time. Log it as PIC and if the CFI refuses to sign the logbook, talk to the FSDO. CFIs can and have had certification action taken against them for refusing to sign a logbook. I'll try to find the case tonight.
 
FlyingOfficer said:
I'm currently a Private Pilot training for my Instrument Rating. I've had several flights under the hood performing instrument approaches, holding, and intercepting and tracking.
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Guess what? You can log actual instrument without an IR. The only requirement for instrument time is "flight solely by reference of instruments." It is quite possible to fly solely by reference to instruments and be VFR. Flying over the water on a moonless night is an example, or above a cloud deck at night.

Anyway, as everyone else has said, sole manipulator with category and class is all you need to log PIC. You don't even need a certificate in category and class, as PIC endorsement is also sufficient.

Fix your logbook and add the time, you may well end up needing it for some insurance reason down the road.
 
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