Logging landings as a CFI...

[fish1260]

You would think that I would have come to some conclusion on how exactly to do this after a year of full time instructing, however after reading the thread in the ATP forum about logging PIC XC time it made me start thinking again. What landings should I really put down in my logbook?

There are the two sides, you are responsible for what happens, so log it, or if I am not the only person on the controls, it is not my landing. I am of the later opinion, and thus have only logged enough landings over the last year to make sure I am current. I have finally reached 135 minimums and started auditing my logbook and filling out a few applications. I have all of this Cross country time logged, but no landings to go along with it? Common sense tells me that this will not be a problem. Any interviewer will know that it was an instructional flight, etc. Has anybody run into this as a problem in an interview, or how do you all go about doing this?

 

[bLizZuE]

If I help the student land in any way, I log the landing. I don't stretch this to "well I talked him through the flare", stick mostly to "saves". IE - landings that would not have been pretty without me.

 

[Douglas]

If I help the student land in any way, I log the landing. I don't stretch this to "well I talked him through the flare", stick mostly to "saves". IE - landings that would not have been pretty without me.

x2

 

[CRJDriver]

When I was actively instructing, one of my co-workers used to log every single landing, basically everytime the plane touched the ground, wheather it was him or the student. I always laughed at his logbook, because he used to have like 50 or so landings on one page. One night I told him I was going to go up and get night current real quick in the C152. He looked a little puzzled and asked me why and if I didn't have any night landings. The way he saw it, he never had to get current, because he logged every landing his students did. I told him to look at the regs. and where it talks about sole manipulator of flight controls, etc. Either way, it is his loogbook and he can write in it what he wants. I just thought it was a little ridicolous to log every landing the airplane does.

 

[popaviator]

If I get that nervous feeling and have to put any part of my hand on the yoke......yea I log itirate:........ I like to think of myself as pretty laid back though

 

[Roger, Roger]

What everyone else said...if I have to save us from bending metal during the landing, I'll log it. Though I usually forget to and only log if I demonstrate one.

 

[Maurus]

The only regs pertaining to the logging of landings is for passenger currency requirements. You can log every landing that your student makes, just be sure to make a note for the landings and takeoffs that are for currency.

Some people may not recommend this, but in the end it doesn't matter so long as currency landings are properly logged as currency landings. Some people like to only log only landings for currency to be safe, but there is nothing keeping you from logging all landings you did with a student.

Besides, if you couldn't log the takeoffs and landings as a CFI that your students make, how could you log the dual x-countries as x-country time considering you need a "point of landing (for a rating)" or the basic cross-country definition "That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure"? If you don;t log the landing you don't have any cross-country time that you can log as a CFI.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

It's very simple. The only FAR reason to log landings is for passenger-carrying currency. And the reg does not say,

==============================
(a) General experience.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and -
(i) The person was responsible if metal was bent or assisted the landing in any way...
==============================

it does says

==============================
(a) General experience.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and -
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls...
==============================

It could not be more clear.

 

[Maurus]

Yup, but that reg does not pertain to logging landings. I can still log landings even though I am not the "sole manipulator", otherwise they wouldn't have needed to include the requirement of "sole manipulator" in the first place.

Log the landings if you want, they just can't be used toward currency unless you were the sole manipulator of the flight controls.


Also another far reason to log landings is for x-countries. If we are CFIing toward Part 135 minimums, the dual x-countries conducted require a landing logged to allow for the logging of x-country time.

(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

If no landing is logged, the there is no proof of an x-country being completed as defined and the CFI would not be able to log the x-country as x-county time.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Yup, but that reg does not pertain to logging landings.

It doesn't? Them perhaps you can tell us which one does.

You're welcome to log what you want. And the FAA is welcome to treat them as logged for currency unless the logbook says it was for some other purpose.

 

[subpilot]

An instructor does not have to log the landing for a x-country to count. The aircraft/flight landed at another airport and you were PIC/Instructor. Otherwise the reg would say the x-country landing must be as sole manipulator. I never logged the landing the captain made at the airlines but I sure counted everything else (including cross country and instument time).

I personally log every landing as an instructor because it is my record of what we did for the flight. I don't forsee the FAA questioning if an active CFI is current on recency of experience.

 

[Maurus]

It doesn't? Them perhaps you can tell us which one does.

There is no reg that says what can be logged as landings or not.

All that matters is the proper logging or record keeping of the currency landings and takeoffs. The reg doesn't mention logging whatsoever.

 

[mshunter]

I just log everylanding, and fly by myself, or with the wife/kid/someone about once every month. In the end, the amount of landings does not realy matter, as long as you have it noted somewhere that you are current.

Edit: You'd have to come across an inspector with more than a stick (try the whole tree) in a not so sun shiny spot to get the book thrown at you for this one. I seriously doubt that some of what is being said is actually true. I know of -zero- CFI's that actually only can remember what landings were theirs after an 8 hour day. And how many of you actually sit down after each flight and put the flight into your logbook (I have never seen ANY CFI put an entry into their log when they do their students). An FAA examiner that I know actually told a whole CFI class not to even bring their logbook with them to the airport.

 

[wjmiller3]

I never log landings as an instructor, for no other reason than there is no need to. I do more than enough contract flying to stay current.

 

[Roger, Roger]

And how many of you actually sit down after each flight and put the flight into your logbook (I have never seen ANY CFI put an entry into their log when they do their students). An FAA examiner that I know actually told a whole CFI class not to even bring their logbook with them to the airport.

Really? Unless I was REALLY crunched for time I would always at least put it in the electronic log.

Not filling out the logbook all day was always fun...

...get to the end of the day and start going through the computer records of your flights.
"aw man...I hope I didn't break 8 hours..."
"aw crap, it's gonna be close..."
"oh whew, only 7.7"
"aw crap, it's after midnight. screw you guys, I'm goin' home"

 

[adk]

(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls...
==============================

It could not be more clear.

Can of worms, but doesn't that mean that if the instructor saves the landing it can be logged by neither person because nobody was solely manipulating the controls?

 

[nosehair]

Can of worms, but doesn't that mean that if the instructor saves the landing it can be logged by neither person because nobody was solely manipulating the controls?

The way I see that is the instructor is sole manipulator if he assists. It should be "MY controls" as he takes the controls to assist. Even though the student may be "following through", the instructor has become sole manipulator.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Edit: You'd have to come across an inspector with more than a stick (try the whole tree) in a not so sun shiny spot to get the book thrown at you for this one.

I thought the thread was about doing it correctly, not about whether you'd get caught, but what you said is exactly the problem. The chances of getting the book thrown at you for this one is very, very small – unless something happened to make the FAA question your currency or your logbook entries and wasn't particularly happy with the answer.

Like the two CFIs who logged every flight together as instruction so they could built their multi-PIC time.

Or like the type-rating candidate who put a little extra time in type in his logbook and then argued it wasn't falsification of his logbook because all the time he was required to have for the rating was real and so the fake time didn't really count.

Then with stick firmly in place, the FAA proceeds to revoke (not suspend) all certificates and ratings under 61.59.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The way I see that is the instructor is sole manipulator if he assists. It should be "MY controls" as he takes the controls to assist. Even though the student may be "following through", the instructor has become sole manipulator.

You can play with the "assist" issue. I think you are probably correct when it comes to a "follow me on the controls" demonstration landing.

It's less clear when it's really an assist. If I have a student who pulls back too much too quickly in the flare, I may use my hands to slow his movement. I'm not particularly interested in arguing with the FAA over whether I was the sole manipulator or we were both manipulators in the context in which this might come up.

I really never understood the argument about this that much, and even less since the FAA Chief Counsel said that CFIs don't need to be landing current when giving instruction.

There are a few certificate and rating requirements that specify landings without specifying sole manipulator (solo, sport, recreational and private pilot requirements). And let's even say Maurus is correct that if you don't at least note the landing you didn't do in the logbook, a CFI can't log cross country when giving dual cross country, although I doubt it.

But all of the rest of the landing rules are currency rules. And all require landings while being the sole manipulator. It's not just 61.57 - check out, for example, 61.55(b)(2) for SIC, 61.58 for PIC in multi-pilot crews, and 135.247 for Part 135 currency.

And none of them appear to be that onerous - even a poor CFI living on Ramen should be able to get in one landing a month.

Personally, I like to treat my logbook as a record of FAA flight time, but that's just me. I've seen people use their logbook as a scrapbook, complete with photos and clippings from articles. That's ok with me. If you want to note the Maurus cross country landing, want to log the landing while sitting in seat 21B on United 438, or you think potential employers will be impressed that you had 2300 landings when teaching student pilots in a 152 – go ahead. But just let readers of the logbook (the FAA just in case) know that those landings don't count for any FAA purpose so you don't have to dance after the accident and answer this question from the inspector (when things are already bad for other reasons):

"60 landings in the past 30 days? Don't you ever let your students land the airplane?"

 

[mshunter]

I thought the thread was about doing it correctly, not about whether you'd get caught, but what you said is exactly the problem. The chances of getting the book thrown at you for this one is very, very small – unless something happened to make the FAA question your currency or your logbook entries and wasn't particularly happy with the answer.

Like the two CFIs who logged every flight together as instruction so they could built their multi-PIC time.

Or like the type-rating candidate who put a little extra time in type in his logbook and then argued it wasn't falsification of his logbook because all the time he was required to have for the rating was real and so the fake time didn't really count.

Then with stick firmly in place, the FAA proceeds to revoke (not suspend) all certificates and ratings under 61.59.

I don't see any thing that says I can't log every landing that I am not the PIC, weather I do it or not. The reg would have to be twisted to make it fit this case, hence the tree comment. As long as you have it noted that you are the current, there is not much wiggle room to bust you with.