Logging B-17 time as dual received?

[Hacker15e]

I say valid to log as dual.

 

[rframe]

you can occupy it because you're receiving dual instruction from a qualified instructor

I dunno, who's fulfilling the type certificate's requirement for an SIC during the instruction? Got a FAR reference?

 

[Der_Meister]

log it as dual like many have said I don't know many who would question you about it other then. What you thought about flying it and what you liked most about it. After all would you really want to work for someone who cared that much about you .5 of B-17 time? I know I wouldn't.

 

[hemaybedid]

The main problem here lies in the fact that there were other people or property on board. That is forbidden in 61.55. Even if it's just another qualified pilot. Not sure about the no ME thing.

 

[I_Money]

I have never seen a section in a logbook that says # of pax. As everyone has said it is 0.5, it is one of the most memorable flights in aviation, a dream of many - leave it in, enjoy it, and most people who see your log book will unlikely notice or if they do minimally will ask questions about the experience than discuss the FARs.

 

[Hacker15e]

If someone qualified in the airplane "always" had to be filling a SIC position, then nobody would ever be able to learn to fly the thing.

Everyone must realize that the B-17 flies on a Limited type certificate and pilots fly in that mythical and confusing FAA world of authorized experimental and vintage aircraft. Experimental Type Ratings....LOAs....Authorized Experimental Aircraft.....the works. The FARs, as most of you know them with respect to professional aviation, don't directly apply just because it is a multi-pilot aircraft. It's ground that warbird operators have to tread very carefully into and around because even most of the FAA folks don't understand the convergence point of all the strange rules and exceptions where multiengine warbirds live.

Essentially unless the aircraft is flying internationally, a typed SIC is not required for the B-17 or other big multiengine warbirds to fly around in the US.

 

[flyinguitar]

If someone qualified in the airplane "always" had to be filling a SIC position, then nobody would ever be able to learn to fly the thing.

Actually, the language of 61.55 specifically addresses this conundrum, and permits a pilot to act as SIC while training to meet the requirements of SIC. Which means that technically the SIC position should always be filled.

 

[flyinguitar]

We have his confession here on the website, and now it's Google cached. The black Crown Victoria is already departing the FSDO near Detroit, enroute to his residence in southeast Michigan.

Boy, am I ever lucky that I moved without updating my profile! Otherwise I'd probably be locked up in maximum security already.

But seriously, my concern for accuracy is not really motivated by the paranoia of the "what if" of some inspector seeing the entry and deciding to make trouble. (The pilots operating the B-17 would probably get in more trouble.) Mainly I just want to have my logbook totals be accurate (yes, I have obsessive compulsive personality disorder), and I want to understand the FARs accurately.

 

[flyinguitar]

Essentially unless the aircraft is flying internationally, a typed SIC is not required for the B-17 or other big multiengine warbirds to fly around in the US.

Are you saying that, according to these strange warbird rules, you could technically fly a B-17 single pilot? Or just that there are no specific requirements for SIC, such as category and class?

I've suspected that the certification/operation regulations for old warbirds is different, and therein might lie the answer to my question.

 

[rframe]

If someone qualified in the airplane "always" had to be filling a SIC position, then nobody would ever be able to learn to fly the thing.

Not true. 61.55 (h) exists specifically to clear up how you become SIC current when you aren't, but there is never an exception to 61.55(a)(1)...you must hold at least a Private MEL, or else you dont get to fly.

Under very limited circumstances a Commercial or ATP multi-rated pilot can also act as SIC without SIC currency, see (g).

§ 61.55 Second-in-command qualifications.​

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:​

(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and​

(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and​

(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace.​

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:​

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—​

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.​

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.​

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.​

(iv) Flight manual.​

(v) Placards and markings.​

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes—​

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;​

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and​

(iii) Crew resource management training.​

(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.​

(d) A person may receive a second-in-command pilot type rating for an aircraft after satisfactorily completing the second-in-command familiarization training requirements under paragraph (b) of this section in that type of aircraft provided the training was completed within the 12 calendar months before the month of application for the SIC pilot type rating. The person must comply with the following application and pilot certification procedures:​

(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with §61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.​

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”​

(3) If the applicant's flight experience and/or training records are in an electronic form, the applicant must present a paper copy of those records containing the signature of the trainer or qualified management official to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or Examiner.​

(4) The applicant must complete and sign an Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710–1, and present the application to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner.​

(5) The person who provided the ground and flight training to the applicant must sign the “Instructor's Recommendation” section of the Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710–1. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's FAA Form 8710–1.​

(6) The applicant must appear in person at a FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner with his or her logbook/training records and with the completed and signed FAA Form 8710–1.​

(7) There is no practical test required for the issuance of the “SIC Privileges Only” pilot type rating.​

(e) A person may receive a second-in-command pilot type rating for the type of aircraft after satisfactorily completing an approved second-in-command training program, proficiency check, or competency check under subpart K of part 91, part 121, part 125, or part 135, as appropriate, in that type of aircraft provided the training was completed within the 12 calendar months before the month of application for the SIC pilot type rating. The person must comply with the following application and pilot certification procedures:​

(1) The person who provided the training must sign the applicant's logbook or training record after each lesson in accordance with §61.51(h)(2) of this part. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's training records or logbook and make the required endorsement. The qualified management official must hold the position of Chief Pilot, Director of Training, Director of Operations, or another comparable management position within the organization that provided the training and must be in a position to verify the applicant's training records and that the training was given.​

(2) The trainer or qualified management official must make an endorsement in the applicant's logbook that states “[Applicant's Name and Pilot Certificate Number] has demonstrated the skill and knowledge required for the safe operation of the [Type of Aircraft], relevant to the duties and responsibilities of a second in command.”​

(3) If the applicant's flight experience and/or training records are in an electronic form, the applicant must provide a paper copy of those records containing the signature of the trainer or qualified management official to an FAA Flight Standards District Office, an Examiner, or an Aircrew Program Designee.​

(4) The applicant must complete and sign an Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710–1, and present the application to an FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner or to an authorized Aircrew Program Designee.​

(5) The person who provided the ground and flight training to the applicant must sign the “Instructor's Recommendation” section of the Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application, FAA Form 8710–1. In lieu of the trainer, it is permissible for a qualified management official within the organization to sign the applicant's FAA Form 8710–1.​

(6) The applicant must appear in person at an FAA Flight Standards District Office or to an Examiner or to an authorized Aircrew Program Designee with his or her logbook/training records and with the completed and signed FAA Form 8710–1.​

(7) There is no practical test required for the issuance of the “SIC Privileges Only” pilot type rating.​

(f) The familiarization training requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to a person who is:​

(1) Designated and qualified as pilot in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;​

(2) Designated as the second in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;​

(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or​

(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109 of this chapter.​

(g) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:​

(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and​

(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.​

(h) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:​

(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and​

(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.​

(i) The training under paragraphs (b) and (d) of this section and the training, proficiency check, and competency check under paragraph (e) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved training course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter or under subpart K of part 91, part 121 or part 135 of this chapter.​

(j) When an applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft receives all the training in a flight simulator, that applicant must satisfactorily complete one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought. This requirement does not apply to an applicant who completes a proficiency check under part 121 or competency check under subpart K, part 91, part 125, or part 135 for the particular type of aircraft.​

​

​

*Note: I agree with everyone else who says "who cares"... this was just a cool flight and good story, but dont worry about logging it.

 

[MOGuy424]

This is under 91.51, for logging of flight time, specifically for PIC time but I would expect t applies.


(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

( 1 ) Preflight preparation;

( 2 ) Preflight procedures;

( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;

( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;

( 5 ) Instrument procedures;

( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;

( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;

( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and

( 9 ) Postflight procedures;

(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—

( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or

( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.

(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft.

 

[rframe]

This is under 91.51, for logging of flight time, specifically for PIC time but I would expect t applies

That doesn't work either, same restrictions we pointed out from 61.55(a)(1)....actually it's even more restrictive as pilot must hold at least a commercial certificate with category and class ratings:

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;


Further, it's only legitimate if part of an approved training program.

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation

 

[Hacker15e]

Are you saying that, according to these strange warbird rules, you could technically fly a B-17 single pilot? Or just that there are no specific requirements for SIC, such as category and class?

I've suspected that the certification/operation regulations for old warbirds is different, and therein might lie the answer to my question.

No, just meant that the copilot doesn't need a type rating. Two pilots are still required.

 

[flyinguitar]

No, just meant that the copilot doesn't need a type rating. Two pilots are still required.

Type rating, or category and class? I agree with you that a type rating is not required, but category and class appear to be required by 61.55. If there are different rules that apply to warbirds, I'd be interested to find out if it's written anywhere.