Logging B-17 time as dual received?

flyinguitar

flyinguitar

Well-Known Member
A few years ago, I was in the right place at the right time and got a free ride in a B-17. After the plane levelled off at cruise, the crew motioned for me to come sit in the left seat. I held her S&L for about 30 minutes enroute.

After we landed, the pilot in the right seat (he was an instructor and PIC qualified in the B-17) offered to sign my logbook so I could log the flight. We did so, and I have .5 hrs of dual received in a B-17 in my logbook. I was NOT ME rated at the time. Since I assume the B-17 is a 2-pilot aircraft (at least), is it legal for someone not rated category and class to receive instruction?

I guess this is basically the same question as whether someone type rated in any 2-pilot jet could give instruction to a student pilot.

Thanks for your input!
 
I don't think anyone will get seriously worked up about .5 in an antique airplane.

I guess technically you shouldn't count it toward any certificate or rating, but I would not worry about it.
 
Log it any way you want. Highlight it with smiles and exclamation marks that you actually got the chance to fly a B-17. It's YOUR logbook, do with it what you want. In the grand scheme of things, .5 in the wrong column isn't going to hurt or help you.
 
flyinguitar said:
A few years ago, I was in the right place at the right time and got a free ride in a B-17. After the plane levelled off at cruise, the crew motioned for me to come sit in the left seat. I held her S&L for about 30 minutes enroute.

After we landed, the pilot in the right seat (he was an instructor and PIC qualified in the B-17) offered to sign my logbook so I could log the flight. We did so, and I have .5 hrs of dual received in a B-17 in my logbook. I was NOT ME rated at the time. Since I assume the B-17 is a 2-pilot aircraft (at least), is it legal for someone not rated category and class to receive instruction?

I guess this is basically the same question as whether someone type rated in any 2-pilot jet could give instruction to a student pilot.

Thanks for your input!
Click to expand...

How does a person become rated for something they are not currently? They receive dual instruction in it, of course! So, yes, obviously you can log it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
 
flyinguitar said:
...and I have .5 hrs of dual received in a B-17 in my logbook. I was NOT ME rated at the time. Since I assume the B-17 is a 2-pilot aircraft (at least), is it legal for someone not rated category and class to receive instruction?
Click to expand...

If it weren't legal, how in the world would anyone ever be able to receive dual instruction in anything?

I guess this is basically the same question as whether someone type rated in any 2-pilot jet could give instruction to a student pilot.
Click to expand...

Totaly different question, actually
 
jknight8907 said:
How does a person become rated for something they are not currently? They receive dual instruction in it, of course! So, yes, obviously you can log it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2
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Mike H said:
If it weren't legal, how in the world would anyone ever be able to receive dual instruction in anything?



Totaly different question, actually
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Yes, but the detail that I feel is a relevant distinction is that a B-17 requires 2 pilots and I did not have the MEL class rating.

The vast majority of flight training, which you are referring to, occurs in single pilot airplanes where the instructor is PIC. If the student is in a coma it is still legal. Training in 2-pilot airplanes, which is discussed in FAR 61.55, clearly authorizes a student to receive instruction in the airplane, but the language strongly suggests (but does not explicitly state) that the student should have appropriate category and class ratings. This leaves a grey area that my flight falls into. Mike H, I still see the question of my flight and the scenario of a student pilot receiving instruction in any 2-pilot airplane as equivalent, but I'd be interested to hear how you feel it's different.
 
If I owned a B17 but didn't have a ME, why couldn't I hire a qualified MEI to train me in my plane? This .5 is perfectly legal to log.
And I, too, want to see the pics....
 
Soul Brotha' said:
Pics!!!!!!!
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B-17b.jpg
B-17a.jpg
 
dustoff17 said:
If I owned a B17 but didn't have a ME, why couldn't I hire a qualified MEI to train me in my plane? This .5 is perfectly legal to log.
And I, too, want to see the pics....
Click to expand...
OK, so here's a more detailed explanation of why I think there might be a problem.

A 2-pilot airplane requires two pilots (duh), one of which must meet requirements for PIC and the other of which must meet requirements for SIC.

This leads to a problem - how does one ever become SIC qualified if they need to already be SIC qualified to even take the plane into the air?

61.55 gives two solutions: 1) use a simulator, or 2) paragraph (h), which states:

(h) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:
(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and
(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.

So a trainee in a 2-pilot airplane is being given a dispensation to act as SIC (otherwise the plane could not be flown), before he is otherwise qualified, for the purposes of meeting the experience requirements set forth in paragraph (b). However, (b) does not include the SIC requirement to have category and class ratings. That is stated in paragraph (a):

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:

(1) At least a private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating or privilege that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR; and
(3) The appropriate pilot type rating for the aircraft unless the flight will be conducted as domestic flight operations within United States airspace.

Therefore, I am forced to conclude that a trainee must meet the requirements of paragraph (a) before being granted the dispensation of paragraph (h) to meet the requirements of paragraph (b).

jtrain, you're a lawyer, right? What do you think?
 
If an aircraft is typed with two pilots required, then the SIC must possess at least a private pilot category and class ratings relevant to that aircraft.

When do the regs permit an unqualified person to occupy a crew member station on an aircraft typed for multiple crew? I dont see it anywhere, but it might be there some place...

Without seeing some reg that says anybody can occupy that station (for example while the FO is in the can), it seems to me that whether a B17, DC3, or B-737 I believe you'd have to possess at least a PP-MEL before you could both act as the required SIC and also receive dual instruction in that aircraft.

So, I dont think it's "loggable" time since you didn't hold a multi rating at the time, making you unqualified to act as SIC and be at that station.

Dunno, just my guess.
 
rframe said:
Yeah but the aircraft requires an SIC... so how can you occupy that station if you're not qualified to act as SIC in the first place? I think that's the questionable part.
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you can occupy it because you're receiving dual instruction from a qualified instructor
 
Mike - the poor guy is probably contacting his attorney! He is clearly very passionate about his 0.5 of dual in the B-17. I say hang 'im! lol.

Bp244
 
Baronpilot244 said:
Mike - the poor guy is probably contacting his attorney! He is clearly very passionate about his 0.5 of dual in the B-17. I say hang 'im! lol.

Bp244
Click to expand...

We have his confession here on the website, and now it's Google cached. The black Crown Victoria is already departing the FSDO near Detroit, enroute to his residence in southeast Michigan.






:D
 
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