Logging Actual

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
I know. The way to log actual is to go find it and fly in it. Let me ask the question, though... (@drunkenbeagle , @bucksmith , @hook_dupin @ahw01 @Screaming_Emu @Old Dominion Flyer just because you guys are sorta local or gonna be)

I'm just starting to fly approaches in my IR-A training. And so far, all of my time has been "simulated instrument" where I'm under the hood. And it's very likely, given the type of aircraft I have access to and the time of year, that my entire IRA will be completed under "simulated instrument" vs. actual.

Once I've got the IR, I really would like to get some time in actual clouds, plowing through a layer or whatever I have to do to take the damned foggles off and really fly the airplane that way. Have other people done that? Did you wait for a warm, overcast day and then go play in the soup? Fly XC legs looking for cloud cover?

I'm trying to look out for ways to maximize my training experiences - told my CFII that I'm insisting on varying the approaches we fly as much as possible, including BWI and IAD, even if it ends up costing more. Am not cutting ANY corners with this rating. I realize that when I start the CSEL training, that will MOSTLY be done under VFR, and as such, I want to look out for Actual that I can practice in when things warm up.

So how do you guys handle that, what do you look for, etc?
 
I agree that you need the IMC flying to really experience and get a feel for your abilities and the aircraft's capabilities under real (vs simulated) conditions. I'll suggest that the first time you do this, go with another IR qualified pilot or your instructor. You might not think about it while you're training under simulated conditions, but if things go to crap on you, you can always pull off the "cloud" (foggles/hood) and set things right under VMC. Believe it or not, there's a little peace of mind knowing this.

Until you're in IMC and just simply "removing the cloud" isn't an option, you'll not truly trust your aircraft or, more importantly, YOUR abilities. Trust your training and fly the aircraft.

P.S. I like that you are already looking towards more realistic training. It means you're not just going for a rating....
 
I agree that you need the IMC flying to really experience and get a feel for your abilities and the aircraft's capabilities under real (vs simulated) conditions. I'll suggest that the first time you do this, go with another IR qualified pilot or your instructor. You might not think about it while you're training under simulated conditions, but if things go to crap on you, you can always pull off the "cloud" (foggles/hood) and set things right under VMC. Believe it or not, there's a little peace of mind knowing this.

Until you're in IMC and just simply "removing the cloud" isn't an option, you'll not truly trust your aircraft or, more importantly, YOUR abilities. Trust your training and fly the aircraft.

P.S. I like that you are already looking towards more realistic training. It means you're not just going for a rating....

Thanks.

Do you have any strategies for going Actual Hunting? Conditions that you look for? Like, I know that generally if you're penetrating clouds it's likely to be bumpy, but I suspect finding a good, thick stratiform OVC layer would be relatively smooth right?

On days where such things exist, is ATC okay with you flying a bit lower in the layer knowing that there are VMC conditions above it?
 
My biggest regret from flight training was not getting any actual during my IR training. I was being too cheap at the time to fly over to SoCal to fly in the soup, have regretted it ever since.
 
Do you have any strategies for going Actual Hunting? Conditions that you look for? Like, I know that generally if you're penetrating clouds it's likely to be bumpy, but I suspect finding a good, thick stratiform OVC layer would be relatively smooth right?

On days where such things exist, is ATC okay with you flying a bit lower in the layer knowing that there are VMC conditions above it?

ATC doesn't really care, nor do they even really know what the weather is either.

If you want to just get some experience flying in relatively harmless IMC, wait a few months until it warms up. You'll start getting cumulus clouds building low early in the day, usually at 2,000 - 4,000. Plow on through. There will be bumps, so that is a bit different. IMC, you can usually just ask for whatever altitude you want. When there is a broken layer, usually everyone will be asking for higher or lower to stay out of it, so odds of that level being empty are pretty good.

When it is a lower cumulus layer, like 1,000 - 1,500 or so, that's also a good time to practice approaches. You'll end up getting vectored around 2,000AGL for most approaches, which will have you IMC for a bit, but not flying down to minimums either.
 
the best way to do it is when you see the TAF forecast it, get on the schedule with your instructor. ATC will be fine with requesting an altitude as long as they can give it to you, doesn't matter the reason. If you tell them you are hunting for actual, they might even do a little extra to help you get there depending on what kind of controller you get. Never be afraid to ask them for what you want, 99% of the time they are happy to help.
 
If you tell them you are hunting for actual, they might even do a little extra to help you get there depending on what kind of controller you get. Never be afraid to ask them for what you want, 99% of the time they are happy to help.

@Rocketman99 and I asked for a 4,000' block, in the Bravo, IMC, for doing spins a few years back. Much to our amazement, they gave it to us.

If you are instrument rated and equipped, asking for a clearance in the air is not a big deal either.
 
So how do you guys handle that, what do you look for, etc?

After finishing my instrument rating, I was always looking for days with an overcast layer 500-1,000 feet above minimums for the approach into my home airport. If the weather at a couple of nearby alternate airports was similar, I would try to book a plane for a couple of hours, even if I had no previous plans to fly that day. Those were some of my favorite times flying. I generally had the airspace to myself---and finding a plane was usually not an issue because most planned training flights would cancel in those conditions. Doing so in the winter was more challenging because icing was a consideration, but spring and summer were never a problem.

Decide what your personal minimums are and have a couple of backup plans in case the weather should drop unexpectedly. By setting my threshold at 500 feet above minimums, I had some room to spare in case the layer started to drop, allowing me to complete a final approach and land. Sometimes I would intentionally fly approaches with higher minimums when I knew the ceiling was too low for me to break out and complete the approach---so I was able to fly real-world missed approaches too.

Enjoy!
 
I did all my training simulated and often wondered why I couldn't try it without the hood.

In Phoenix there was bad weather occasionally and I definitely wanted to fly in it, vfr or ifr. Your instructor will have a backup plan in case you need to get a clearance in the air, so he should be as enthusiastic as you.

Caution ice and thunderstorms though, sounds like SoCal is a good option for reliable non 'scary' IMC. But caution also for the vfr traffic which will be skirting around, good teamwork is needed.

Alex.
 
ATC doesn't really care, nor do they even really know what the weather is either.

If you want to just get some experience flying in relatively harmless IMC, wait a few months until it warms up. You'll start getting cumulus clouds building low early in the day, usually at 2,000 - 4,000. Plow on through. There will be bumps, so that is a bit different. IMC, you can usually just ask for whatever altitude you want. When there is a broken layer, usually everyone will be asking for higher or lower to stay out of it, so odds of that level being empty are pretty good.

When it is a lower cumulus layer, like 1,000 - 1,500 or so, that's also a good time to practice approaches. You'll end up getting vectored around 2,000AGL for most approaches, which will have you IMC for a bit, but not flying down to minimums either.

I...er....um....have a couple of business trips coming up this spring down in your neck of the woods.

One way or another. :)
 
This sounds like me when I got my instrument ticket. Almost no time in actual IMC, did most of my training at night with another instrument student. We went out on the first IMC day and served as safety pilot for one another - it was great! I prefer this time of year when thin layers are around. Optimal: A 1,000' thick layer with a 500' OVC ceiling.

You'll also enjoy ATC if you're in Class B or C airspace - there's generally less traffic and better pilots sharing the air with you.

The PIC should clearly establish CRM for the flight, and consistently brief the takeoff and all approaches. Example: "Call out if I am 10 degrees off course, 100' off altitude or 10 knots off target airspeed. If I haven't corrected immediately assume I am spatially disoriented and take the flight controls." Use positive exchange of flight controls. Verbally brief the takeoff and every approach.

This will also help you establish personal wx minimums which should be a lot higher than 200 & a half.

Have fun!
 
This sounds like me when I got my instrument ticket. Almost no time in actual IMC, did most of my training at night with another instrument student. We went out on the first IMC day and served as safety pilot for one another - it was great! I prefer this time of year when thin layers are around. Optimal: A 1,000' thick layer with a 500' OVC ceiling.

You'll also enjoy ATC if you're in Class B or C airspace - there's generally less traffic and better pilots sharing the air with you.

The PIC should clearly establish CRM for the flight, and consistently brief the takeoff and all approaches. Example: "Call out if I am 10 degrees off course, 100' off altitude or 10 knots off target airspeed. If I haven't corrected immediately assume I am spatially disoriented and take the flight controls." Use positive exchange of flight controls. Verbally brief the takeoff and every approach.

This will also help you establish personal wx minimums which should be a lot higher than 200 & a half.

Have fun!

Neat stuff. In my case I'm training in an area that is part of a restricted ADIZ in a SFRA under a Class B shelf with traffic for BWI, DCA and IAD in most directions.

So, uh, it's kinda busy around here. :)

My CFII has a standing order to look for this sort of thing as it becomes viable. There's a chance I'm going to continue with him for the CSEL, so if we backtrack a bit even after I get my IR to do some Actual flying, we'll pause the CSEL training (or fold it in, if possible) to do it.

I really would like to avoid my first time in Actual being a) with another IR student or b) solo.
 
@Rocketman99 and I asked for a 4,000' block, in the Bravo, IMC, for doing spins a few years back. Much to our amazement, they gave it to us.

If you are instrument rated and equipped, asking for a clearance in the air is not a big deal either.


Lol you guys are just being greedy! Spin through the traffic to save airspace. *sarcasm.
 
This will also help you establish personal wx minimums which should be a lot higher than 200 & a half.

Have fun!

Was it here or somewhere else a few years ago where there was a big debate on this? Specifically, I remember someone saying that you're either prepared to fly full IFR to mins or you shouldn't fly it at all - no personal minimums, just regulatory ones. Wasn't my take on it, just thought it was an interesting and lively discussion.
 
Was it here or somewhere else a few years ago where there was a big debate on this? Specifically, I remember someone saying that you're either prepared to fly full IFR to mins or you shouldn't fly it at all - no personal minimums, just regulatory ones. Wasn't my take on it, just thought it was an interesting and lively discussion.
Need popcorn - be right back!
 
Try flying at night, if there's any kind of haze and you can't see the horizon and the ground for reference it's still "by reference to flight instruments" and is legal (pardon me if my FAR wording is a little off I'm out of CFIing for a few years now). But yeah, that's how I logged IMC in the 172 and still do it now in the MD-80.

And be safe, I don't recommend any ceilings less than 1,000ft AGL til you've cut your teeth in a bit. Mistakes are EXTREMELY unforgiving in this environment.
 
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