Logging actual instrument time

Ajax

Ajax

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Since actual instrument time isn't explicitly defined in the regs. I have always logged time as actual if I am inside the clouds and thus flying solely off of instruments, but I had an instructor tell me that he logs actual if he can't meet the VFR cloud clearances (ie flying under IFR but in conditions that allow visual reference with the horizon but a cloud a few hundred feet to the side). However, I have had a sim instructor tell me that at some times night flying could be logged as actual since there is no reference with the horizon whatsoever. That was a new thought to me, and it's not like hes a scrub--he flew for the majors for about 30 years.

So I was wondering what some of you might have to offer on this.
 
The reg says....

61.51(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions..
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I wouldn't consider "night time with no reference with the horizon whatsoever" to be "actual or simulated instrument flight conditions". Although I can tell you looking out over a black/hazy Lake Erie at night can give that sensation.

I also wouldn't consider flying 500ft above the only cloud in the sky on an otherwise clear day to be "actual or simulated instrument flight conditions" either.

At the end of the day though, how much does it matter (i.e. how many hours are you going to spend flying in circles 500 ft above a cloud while logging instrument time), and does logging this kind of flying towards a rating really help you?
 
I agree with you, and no I don't really think it helps to log actual instrument time when it isn't necessary. Like I said I'll stick to logging actual time when I'm inside the clouds, I just wanted to get some other opinions on the subject.

It was an interesting quote coming from someone with so much experience that it got me thinking.
 
I think of 2 things.

Can I reference the horizon?

Could I be in this situation without my instruments?

If the answer is no to both then it is logable as actual.

Remember though, the FAA doesn't ever differentiate actual vs simulated for any of their requirements. Actual IFR is only really useful for resumes and interviews.
 
Codyjp said:
I think of 2 things.

Can I reference the horizon?

Could I be in this situation without my instruments?

If the answer is no to both then it is logable as actual.

Remember though, the FAA doesn't ever differentiate actual vs simulated for any of their requirements. Actual IFR is only really useful for resumes and interviews.
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That's a good way too look at it. I'm doing my CFI-I initial and I'm trying my best to really absorb as much instrument knowledge and opinions on the subject as I can. I can picture the fed asking me a similar question on my checkride.
 
Concerning logging instrument time when operating "in meteorological conditions that don't meet the definition of IFR Conditions but prevent reference of anything other than your instruments", unless there has been additional guidance from the FAA concerning the definition of 'instrument flight conditions' from 61.51(g) (I have no idea honestly), I think either position is defensible on a checkride.
 
Wow. This thread has been live for 40 minutes and no one has said that even though its legal to log actual during <x> conditions, you really shouldn't because the airlines frown on it. You guys are slipping.
 
I know a guy that legit logs Actual everytime he flies IFR...for the entire duration of the flight. Never got a chance to ask him why though.

He's also not a career seeking pilot, so that probably has something to do with it too.
 
I'm not sure how companies view logging "actual IMC" at night without a horizon, but if you've ever done any flying over the desert at night, it's just as blank ahead of you as if you were in a cloud. I say do it.

Logging actual is a bit of a crapshoot anyway, and any interviewer is going to know that. Unless you're in the clouds with a timer running, you're probably doing what we all do: Guesstimating. Personally, I don't really know (or care) how much actual I get on a particular flight. Unless it sticks out in my head as a bad weather day, I just put down 10% of the flight time. I figure it pretty much averages out over time.
 
N519AT said:
I know a guy that legit logs Actual everytime he flies IFR...for the entire duration of the flight. Never got a chance to ask him why though.

He's also not a career seeking pilot, so that probably has something to do with it too.
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From my understanding, a lot of JAA guys log time this way.
 
I typically say "hmm...I wonder how much time during that flight I would have died if not for the instruments and proper training." and log that. I know guys that use stop watches to log exactly to the minute (converted to tenths) how much.

-mini
 
minitour said:
I typically say "hmm...I wonder how much time during that flight I would have died if not for the instruments and proper training." and log that. I know guys that use stop watches to log exactly to the minute (converted to tenths) how much.

-mini
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"Meh, that was about an hour." That system is good enough for me.
 
If you're on top of an OVC layer you're not necessarily in IMC. If I'm cruising at FL350 and there is a cloud deck below at 5,000' it's not IMC.
 
dasleben said:
I'm not sure how companies view logging "actual IMC" at night without a horizon, but if you've ever done any flying over the desert at night, it's just as blank ahead of you as if you were in a cloud. I say do it.
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61.51(g)Logging instrument time. said:
(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions..
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In order to legally log instrument time there are two conditions that must be met.

1. the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments
2. under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions

When flying at night with no horizon condition 1 is met. Condition 2 is not met because you are not in actual instrument flight conditions. Both conditions must be met. Since only one condition is met, it is not instrument time.
 
Maurus said:
In order to legally log instrument time there are two conditions that must be met.

1. the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments
2. under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions

When flying at night with no horizon condition 1 is met. Condition 2 is not met because you are not in actual instrument flight conditions. Both conditions must be met. Since only one condition is met, it is not instrument time.
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Well, what's the definition of actual instrument conditions? Can night flying with no horizon be considered actual instrument? That's the point I'm trying to make. Is IMC simply being "in the clouds"?
 
dasleben said:
Well, what's the definition of actual instrument conditions? Can night flying with no horizon be considered actual instrument? That's the point I'm trying to make. Is IMC simply being "in the clouds"?
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That's how I personally log it. Am I potentially cheating myself out of some time I may have been able to log? Maybe. But that's just the conservative manner in which I log it.

Your mileage may vary.
 
dasleben said:
Well, what's the definition of actual instrument conditions? Can night flying with no horizon be considered actual instrument? That's the point I'm trying to make. Is IMC simply being "in the clouds"?
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IMC is not just being in the clouds but the definition given by the FAA is as follows for IMC.

Pilot/Controller Glossary said:
INSTRUMENT METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS−
Meteorological conditions expressed in
terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling
less than the minima specified for visual meteorological
conditions.
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You may not have a horizon due to a hazy night, but so long as you have the visibility and cloud clearance you are in VMC conditions and can not log instrument time.
 
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