Log PIC as a private pilot in IFR?
- Thread starter Fly_Unity
- Start date
PanJet
Well-Known Member
I disagree with you on that one. Don't have the FAR's handy, but I don't see how you can justify that. Just because the pilot is controlling the airplane, he is not rated for the situation (actual IFR) and is not with a flight instructor.
To me that seems no different than saying a student pilot can log time with a PPL on board because he's manipulating the controls. Not the case I believe.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
It's different because the applicable logging regulations are different.
==============================
A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
==============================
That this means exactly what it says - aircraft ratings, not condition ratings - is so well-settled at this point that disagreeing is like saying 1+1=17.
On the other hand,
==============================
A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
==============================
Hard to fit being the sole occupant of the aircraft with flying with another pilot, isn't is?
nosehair
Well-Known Member
No. That's not the same. Read the reg...oh, you don't have it. OK, here:
61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command time
"A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person-
(a) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has priveleges."
Doesn't say "student pilot". But it says all the other certificates, except ATP, which I find amusing. ATP's can't log PIC time. HA-Ha-Ha.
No, I find this whole thing rediculous, that a spankin' new private pilot can log PIC time in a Malibu on actual instruments at night just because he/she is "wiggling the stick". But, I am ashamed to say, it is true, according to an objective reading of the above reg.
It doesn't say he IS the PIC, just that he can log it. The current interpretation of "for which the pilot is rated or has priveleges" means what is printed on his certificate. Doesn't say "has endorsements", or other stuff, like "current medical", or "current flight review".
Ol' Rusty Bob can come in out of the woods every 20 years and go fly with his current qualified pal, Smilin' Jack, in his trusty FastFire 300, and hold the wheel to keep it level during the cruise portion of a flight, and log it PIC, according to the regulation above.
Now, is that silly, or what?
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I always thought that the absence was pretty funny also. My wild guess is that the authors decided that when it came to ATP privileges, they would just concentrate on the "special ATP ones" and left such things as this to the general "A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating." in 61.167(a).
Maybe. We can disagree on that since we have different views on what "logged PIC" is =supposed= to mean. On the other hand, if you want "silly" that I think is significant, Ol' Rusty Bob can, assuming the proper endorsements for the FastFire 300, catch up on his gorund knowledge, hop into a 152 for enough day time flight to blow the rust off, get signed off for a flight review by a CFI, hop into that 152 solo at night, do three very bad landings to a full stop, and then =acting= as PIC, take passengers on a night cross country in marginal VFR in that FastFire.
Puts merely writing things down on a piece of paper to show bare legal currency or time qualification for a new certificate or rating in a slightly different light, huh?
tgrayson
New Member
<<I always thought that the absence was pretty funny also. My wild guess is that the authors decided that when it came to ATP privileges, they would just concentrate on the "special ATP ones" >>
There is also an implicit hierarchy of certificates, and the higher level ones possess all the privileges of the lower ones. Otherwise, a Commercial pilot would not be able to share expenses with his passengers. ;-)
There is also an implicit hierarchy of certificates, and the higher level ones possess all the privileges of the lower ones. Otherwise, a Commercial pilot would not be able to share expenses with his passengers. ;-)
ananoman
New Member
The reason they probably did not list ATP in this Reg is because an ATP can log PIC time even when they are not the sole manipulator. If they are the Capt. of a flight that requires 2 crew members and one of them has to be an ATP, then they can log PIC time when they are reading magazines in the lav, raiding the galley, and sleeping in their seat.
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know, but I'm talking part 91 ops, which Midlife brought my attention to the 61.167 rule which covers it. Thanks, Mark. I did not know that one.
And tgray, the pilot with a commercial certificate is acting as a private pilot unless he is carrying pax/cargo for hire.
The grade of your certificate does not define that you are operating in that capacity. The type of flight determines that. Kinda like the medical cert. If your first class is over a year old, you are operating as a private pilot.
excessthrust
New Member
OK I stumbled upon this thread and now, 3 months later, I'm going to put in my 2 cents.
I see 6 questions that arise:
The first:
NO.
FSDO is right. 61.51 is the reg, sole manipulator is NOT the rule.
61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command time
(1)"A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person-
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges." Does not apply - Student isn't rated for flight in instrument conditions.
(ii)is the sole occupant of the aircraft Does not apply - Instructor on board.
(iii)...is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot crewmember is required under type certification of the aircraft (NO) or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Does not apply.
If you continue down to 61.51(e)(4), you will see that "student pilot" refers only to someone with no other pilot certificate beyond a Student Pilot Certificate (By realizing said pilot must meet all 3 listed criteria - only a Student Pilot-rated person requires a solo endorsement under 61.87)
Therefore, since the student does not meet criteria to LOG PIC, they may not log that time in ACTUAL IMC as PIC. Any Simulated instrument time may still be logged as PIC.
Second question:
YES.
Precisely. And you MUST be sure that the time is not counted as time toward an instrument rating. 61.183 requires all instructor applicants applying for a powered aircraft rating have an instrument rating, and 61.187 requires that EVERY instructor applicant, no matter what powered rating they desire, must be able to teach at least basic instrument maneuvers.
Third question:
The instructor (CFII) may only give INSTRUMENT instruction NOT towards the issuance of a certificate, and may NOT give any Multi-engine related instruction. The 'student' and CFII must have a multi-engine rating on their PILOT CERTIFICATE as well. The flight could consist of any situation that did not warrant multi-specific training (Single engine approach, etc.)
Reference 61.195(c) "...for the ISSUANCE of an instrument rating...must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate AND pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category (airplane) and class (Multi-engine) of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."
Fourth question:
They CAN teach in an airplane that they, and the student, are rated to fly. They MAY NOT give instruction counted toward the issuance of a certificate (See Previous reference to 61.195)
Fifth Question:
As long as the instructor is a CFII and the IPC is given while the ATP is still current (BFR) in the aircraft.
Number six:
Not correct. In order to fly in actual IMC, you must have an instrument rating:
61.3(e) - "No person may act as PIC under IFR or in less than VFR minimums unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate category, class, and type (if required), and INSTRUMENT RATING on that persons certificate...)"
To fly with a safety pilot to log instrument time you MUST be in VMC - Simulated instrument only:
91.109(b)(2)"...The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to the each side of the aircraft..."
Or What. If you're not rated to ACT as PIC in the conditions you are flying in, you can not LOG PIC.
BTW as an instructor authorized to do and who has performed many 4040 checks for FAA inspectors, I have talked to many people from many different FAA offices around the country, let me say one thing. Just because they answer the phone at the FSDO does not mean they know anything more about the regs that anyone else. Asking the same question 47 times to 47 different inspectors, I guarantee you they did not all concur. A FSDO is not authorized by the FAA hierarchy to give you the FAA's interpretation of any rule, unless it comes from the FAA office in Washington, DC. The official interpretation is made by the legal department, not by your 'friendly' local DPE.
At this time the can of worms is officially open.
I see 6 questions that arise:
The first:
NO.
FSDO is right. 61.51 is the reg, sole manipulator is NOT the rule.
61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command time
(1)"A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log PIC time only for that flight time during which that person-
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges." Does not apply - Student isn't rated for flight in instrument conditions.
(ii)is the sole occupant of the aircraft Does not apply - Instructor on board.
(iii)...is acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot crewmember is required under type certification of the aircraft (NO) or the regulations under which the flight is conducted. Does not apply.
If you continue down to 61.51(e)(4), you will see that "student pilot" refers only to someone with no other pilot certificate beyond a Student Pilot Certificate (By realizing said pilot must meet all 3 listed criteria - only a Student Pilot-rated person requires a solo endorsement under 61.87)
Therefore, since the student does not meet criteria to LOG PIC, they may not log that time in ACTUAL IMC as PIC. Any Simulated instrument time may still be logged as PIC.
Second question:
YES.
Precisely. And you MUST be sure that the time is not counted as time toward an instrument rating. 61.183 requires all instructor applicants applying for a powered aircraft rating have an instrument rating, and 61.187 requires that EVERY instructor applicant, no matter what powered rating they desire, must be able to teach at least basic instrument maneuvers.
Third question:
The instructor (CFII) may only give INSTRUMENT instruction NOT towards the issuance of a certificate, and may NOT give any Multi-engine related instruction. The 'student' and CFII must have a multi-engine rating on their PILOT CERTIFICATE as well. The flight could consist of any situation that did not warrant multi-specific training (Single engine approach, etc.)
Reference 61.195(c) "...for the ISSUANCE of an instrument rating...must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate AND pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category (airplane) and class (Multi-engine) of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."
Fourth question:
They CAN teach in an airplane that they, and the student, are rated to fly. They MAY NOT give instruction counted toward the issuance of a certificate (See Previous reference to 61.195)
Fifth Question:
As long as the instructor is a CFII and the IPC is given while the ATP is still current (BFR) in the aircraft.
Number six:
Not correct. In order to fly in actual IMC, you must have an instrument rating:
61.3(e) - "No person may act as PIC under IFR or in less than VFR minimums unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate category, class, and type (if required), and INSTRUMENT RATING on that persons certificate...)"
To fly with a safety pilot to log instrument time you MUST be in VMC - Simulated instrument only:
91.109(b)(2)"...The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to the each side of the aircraft..."
Or What. If you're not rated to ACT as PIC in the conditions you are flying in, you can not LOG PIC.
BTW as an instructor authorized to do and who has performed many 4040 checks for FAA inspectors, I have talked to many people from many different FAA offices around the country, let me say one thing. Just because they answer the phone at the FSDO does not mean they know anything more about the regs that anyone else. Asking the same question 47 times to 47 different inspectors, I guarantee you they did not all concur. A FSDO is not authorized by the FAA hierarchy to give you the FAA's interpretation of any rule, unless it comes from the FAA office in Washington, DC. The official interpretation is made by the legal department, not by your 'friendly' local DPE.
At this time the can of worms is officially open.
Just a wee bit longer!
At least it's not a "I don't want to get a degree because Bill Gates doesn't have one but I want to fly for FedEx"
excessthrust
New Member
Shouldn't have to go over it, I just tried to collaborate the answers to all 17,000 questions in that thread.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
What does "instrument conditions" have to do with being rated for an =aircraft=?
But the biggest problem with your answer is FAA Legal regulatory interpretation group, whose job it is to interpret them, has consistently said you are wrong for more than 25 years (reprinted for the umpteenth time, with the answer to this question bolded, below).
Ah well... The topic that will never die, although the number of people who don't understand it gets lower and lower with time.
The Great Granddaddy of FAA Legal logging PIC opinions:
==============================
OCT. 28, 1980
WINSTON SCOTT JONES
Dear Mr. Jones:
This is in response to your letter in which you request an interpretation of Section 61.51(2)(c) of the Federal Aviation Regulations, regarding logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) flight time.
Specifically, you ask what time may be logged as PIC time when the pilot in the right seat is a certificated flight instructor (CFI) along for the purpose of instruction and is not a required crewmember, and the pilot in the left seat holds either a private or commercial certificate in an aircraft for which he is rated.
Section 61.51 is a flight-time logging regulation, under which PIC time may be logged by one who is not actually the pilot in command (i.e., not "ultimately" responsible for the aircraft) during that time. This is consistent with the purpose of Section 61.51, which as stated in 61.51(a) is to record aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of Section 61.
Section 61.51(c)(2)(i) provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as pilot-in-command time only that flight time during which the pilot--
1. Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated; or
2. Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
3. Acts as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Under Section 61.51(c)(2)(iii) a certificated flight instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time during which he or she acts as a flight instructor. Sections 61.51(b)(2)(iii) and (iv) provide for logging of flight instruction and instrument flight instruction received.
Accordingly, two or more pilots may each log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, a pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he or she is rated may log that time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(i) while receiving instruction, and the instructor may log that same time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(iii).
There is no provision in the FAR's for logging of "dual" flight time; however, we assume that you are referring to logging time as instruction received. Section 61.51(b)(2)(iii) and (iv) allow flight instruction and instrument instruction received time to be recorded. There is nothing in the FAR's which prevents a pilot from logging the same time as both instruction received and PIC time, as long as each requirement is met. The pilot may also log the same time as instrument instruction. Note, though, that one hour of flight logged both as one hour of PIC and one hour of instruction received still adds up to only one hour total flight time.
You request interpretations of these regulations for situations in which:
1. The purpose of the flight is instruction in advanced maneuvers.
2. The purpose of the flight is simulated instrument instruction in actual VFR conditions.
3. The purpose of the flight is instrument instruction actual IFR conditions.
4. The pilot in the left seat is not current in the aircraft or in the conditions of flight.
5. The purpose of the flight is transition from tricycle to conventional landing gear.
6. The purpose of the flight is obtaining logbook endorsement authorizing operation of a high performance aircraft, as required by FAR 61.31(e).
7. The purpose of the flight is transition to a different type aircraft of the same category and class for which the left seat pilot is rated and a type rating is not required.
In each situation, the CFI may log PIC time for all flight time during which she or he acts as flight instructor. The pilot receiving instruction may also log PIC time in each of these situations, as the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which she or he is rated. Specifically, neither the currency requirements of situation 4 nor the log book endorsement of situation 6 are ratings within the meaning of Section 61.51. "Rating" as used in that section refers to the rating in categories, classes, and types, as listed in Section 61.5, which are placed on pilot certificates.
We trust that this discussion answers your questions.
Sincerely,
EDWARD P. FABERMAN
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
==============================
nosehair
Well-Known Member
I'm with you, man. I jumped into this fray a few years ago, thinking the same thing: You have to be able to ACT to LOG. Well, I've been "converted" by an objective reading of 61.51. Your claim that the regulation means something else not written is impotent.
Well, you're one of those ones who is perpetuating the "unwritten" word.
I personally believe the intent of the wording of 61.51(1)(i) was that ACTING as the PIC was implied, and these are the conditions to be able to LOG it. But it doesn't say that.
Give it up...the worms are out of the can and gone...
excessthrust
New Member
I agree 100% with this letter. I disagree with your interpretation.
61.5(b)(8) Instrument Ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates only)
(i)Instrument - Airplane (Category-specific rating)
OK, so when do you need to have this specific rating?
61.3(e) - "No person may act as PIC under IFR or in less than VFR minimums unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate category, class, and type (if required), and INSTRUMENT RATING on that persons certificate...)"
You MUST have an instrument rating to act as PIC in Instrument conditions.
As an applicant for an instrument RATING, you can log PIC for all time flown in an aircraft you have the category and class ratings (ex. Airplane Single Engine) that is performed under Visual conditions (because you are rated) and simulated instrument time (because it is visual conditions-you are rated), but as soon as you go into Instrument conditions (Less than the VFR minimums you are RATED for) you may not log the PIC time.
Being RATED in an aircraft means more that "Do you have the class rating - Single engine land, multi-engine land, etc"
To fly in less than Visual Flight Rules conditions and log PIC you MUST also have an Instrument rating.
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Sir, that is not HIS interprtation, that is the official interpretation of
EDWARD P. FABERMAN
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
excessthrust
New Member
Umm...that is exactly what I said? I agree 100% with the letter from Mr. Faberman.
I do not agree with Midlife's statement
Your must be instrument RATED to be PIC in Instrument conditions. 61.3(e)
But if we go by Midlife's theory, I'm gonna log PIC in a DC-3 on floats because I ride up front with a guy who has his Commercial Multi-engine Sea (I don't), and my Instructor ticket says "Airplane Multi-engine"
I'm not rated, so I can't
An aircraft rating only allows you to fly and act as PIC in VFR.
Once you get an instrument rating you can fly and act as PIC in less than VFR.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
He's not reading. He agrees with you on what he =wants= it to say but, unlike you, he won't admit what it =does= say.
For example, notice that most of the listed scenarios in which the FAA says you may =log= PIC are ones in which the pilot may not =act= as PIC.
Ah well...
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
excessthrust, you are incorrect. I know it sounds funny because I used to think exactly like you do and have had some arguments as well. Do some research and you'll see Midlife is correct.