Little rant...

[fholbert]

As a low-time GA pilot myself, I had a couple of questions for anyone who wanted to chime in:

1) Suppose this was a relatively unfamiliar airport. I would be somewhat uncomfortable at night suddenly being asked to switch runways while on 1.5 mile final. I realize that we can't always be "comfortable" with ATC instructions, but I guess my question is what recourse or options does one have when presented with situations like this? Ask the ornery controller for clarification? Do as your told?

It's kind of your job to know where the other runways are. Pre-flight planing? However if you feel it's unsafe it's always your prerogativeto go around. The FAA could never prosecute a pilot for a go around or a missed approach.

2) I'm looking at an airport diagram of LGB, Jschutt. When he told you turn right at inactive 34L, did you just continue to putt putt on down 34L getting instructions to cross runways 30 and 25R?

Since the runway is being used as a taxiway you would need clearance to cross runways.

 

[crfguy51]

No doubt the guy is a jerk, but I've never had any issues. Just make sure you keep it by-the-book and don't stress about it.

Obviously his superiors know about the situation (I heard anger management classes were deemed mandatory during his suspension) so just keep it professional and if it really bothers you that much call the twr.

If you fly in LGB you know how crazy it can get at times, not to defend the guy but the radio skills of a large percentage of pilots leave much to be desired....not to mention all the close calls with students and A320's.. I can see why controllers are pretty high strung.

 

[BaronPete]

It's kind of your job to know where the other runways are. Pre-flight planing? However if you feel it's unsafe it's always your prerogativeto go around. The FAA could never prosecute a pilot for a go around or a missed approach.


Since the runway is being used as a taxiway you would need clearance to cross runways.

Knowing where the runway is? I felt like I addressed this, but yes, I'm aware that familiarizing yourself with all matters of a given flight is essential, but again, I'd be uncomfortable (there's that word, again) accepting a lateral runway change 1.5 miles away AT night as a 50 hour pilot. In my experiences thus far, controllers have been very accommodating at tailoring what they ask to a given pilot's experience level. Is it their job? No. Am I ashamed to admit that as a 50 hour private I'd sweat flying into LGB at night and only to be given a series of runway changes on short final? Absolutely not.

 

[fholbert]

not to defend the guy but the radio skills of a large percentage of pilots leave much to be desired....not to mention all the close calls with students and A320's.. I can see why controllers are pretty high strung.

When I worked an a ATC'er that was the hardest part to deal with.

Cessna 12345 traffic 10:00 5 miles north bound same altitude.
<nothing>
Cessna 12345 approach, traffic 10:00 3 miles north bound same altitude.
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 do you see that traffic?
<nothing>
Cessna 12345 approach, do you see that traffic?
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 descend and maintain 6000
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 I need a read back on your assigned altitude.
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 descend and maintain 6000, read back your assigned altitude please.
Pilot: Roger
Cessna 12345 you need to start you descent now. Traffic now 11:00 2 miles same altitude.
Pilot: Roger, I'm going to call flight service for weather at my destination.
Cessna 12345 negative stay with me. Traffic alert 12:00 less than 1 mile same altitude.
<He's off frequency>

 

[BaronPete]

When I worked an a ATC'er that was the hardest part to deal with.

Cessna 12345 traffic 10:00 5 miles north bound same altitude.
<nothing>
Cessna 12345 approach, traffic 10:00 2 miles north bound same altitude.
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 do you see that traffic?
<nothing>
Cessna 12345 approach, do you see that traffic?
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 descend and maintain 6000
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 I need a read back on your assigned altitude.
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 descend and maintain 6000, read back your assigned altitude please.
Pilot: Roger
Cessna 12345 you need to start you descent now. Traffic now 1:00 2 miles same altitude.
Pilot: Roger, I'm going to call flight service for weather at my destination.
Cessna 12345 negative stay with me. Traffic alert 12:00 less than 1 mile same altitude.
<He's off frequency>

Hahaha, well played, sir :yup:

 

[cmill]

When I worked an a ATC'er that was the hardest part to deal with.

Cessna 12345 traffic 10:00 5 miles north bound same altitude.
<nothing>
Cessna 12345 approach, traffic 10:00 3 miles north bound same altitude.
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 do you see that traffic?
<nothing>
Cessna 12345 approach, do you see that traffic?
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 descend and maintain 6000
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 I need a read back on your assigned altitude.
Pilot: Roger.
Cessna 12345 descend and maintain 6000, read back your assigned altitude please.
Pilot: Roger
Cessna 12345 you need to start you descent now. Traffic now 11:00 2 miles same altitude.
Pilot: Roger, I'm going to call flight service for weather at my destination.
Cessna 12345 negative stay with me. Traffic alert 12:00 less than 1 mile same altitude.
<He's off frequency>

ughhh, it painful as a pilot to listen to an exchange like that. I wanna reach through the radio and slap people like that. I would never have the patience to be a controller.

 

[crfguy51]

Listen to 19.4 for a few hours and think about what you are actually hearing. I worked for an airline @ LGB and we had a scanner in our break room so we could hear when a flight was inbound.

I remember this hearing this exchange right when I began my flight training while working for the airline. This was at night.

"Cessna xxxx confirm squak'in VFR"

"Roger, VFR"

"Cessna xxx, LB tower..confirm V-F-R sqk code"

"Roger, V-F-R sqk code"

"ofdihsojfskdjfnkjsdfldsjflidsjf" (someone stepping on the controller)

"djbhskjfhksfjhkjfinbound 25L"

"calling tower stand by"

"Cessna xxx, LB twr... transponder code V-F-R 1-2-0-0!"

"Roger 3200"

"Long Beach TWR Cessna 33C 5 miles east of queen mary for 25"

"Cessna 33C is that your full call sign, do you have atis? what runway do you want?"

"LB Twr..JetBlue 201, 4 from becca ILS 30."


I could see where dealing with this could drive anyone crazy...

 

[dasleben]

I hate controllers like this. No rhyme or reason they're nasty to you; they just are.

I've only had to do this once, but after getting an uncalled-for tongue lashing by a ground controller, I stopped the airplane and said "[callsign] is ready to copy a phone number for the tower."

His response: "You might just get one next time!" (Trying to intimidate me?)

Me: "Okay...." (That's why I asked...?)

Never did get that phone number.

 

[DPApilot]

Knowing where the runway is? I felt like I addressed this, but yes, I'm aware that familiarizing yourself with all matters of a given flight is essential, but again, I'd be uncomfortable (there's that word, again) accepting a lateral runway change 1.5 miles away AT night as a 50 hour pilot. In my experiences thus far, controllers have been very accommodating at tailoring what they ask to a given pilot's experience level. Is it their job? No. Am I ashamed to admit that as a 50 hour private I'd sweat flying into LGB at night and only to be given a series of runway changes on short final? Absolutely not.

After doing it a few times you get used to it. I was on the ILS 4R at MDW and they asked right as I was breaking out at 600 "Cessna 22M, do you have the field in sight?" I said afirm and they asked if I could sidestep to 4L (350 feet now) and it was no big deal. 50 hours or 500 hours, I would feel uncomfortable doing so the first time, but it's the only way to learn.

 

[mshunter]

Knowing where the runway is? I felt like I addressed this, but yes, I'm aware that familiarizing yourself with all matters of a given flight is essential, but again, I'd be uncomfortable (there's that word, again) accepting a lateral runway change 1.5 miles away AT night as a 50 hour pilot. In my experiences thus far, controllers have been very accommodating at tailoring what they ask to a given pilot's experience level. Is it their job? No. Am I ashamed to admit that as a 50 hour private I'd sweat flying into LGB at night and only to be given a series of runway changes on short final? Absolutely not.

It's real simple. If you feel that any ATC instruction is going to interfere with the safety of your flight, tell then "unable." If they have given you an instruction, and you are following said instruction, then they try and change it on you, and you can't comply, you simply tell them unable. But, be prepared for the repercussions.

 

[Crism]

A guy I know uses this quote a lot when the DAB ATC messes up.

"Time check, operator initials."

 

[mshunter]

After doing it a few times you get used to it. I was on the ILS 4R at MDW and they asked right as I was breaking out at 600 "Cessna 22M, do you have the field in sight?" I said afirm and they asked if I could sidestep to 4L (350 feet now) and it was no big deal. 50 hours or 500 hours, I would feel uncomfortable doing so the first time, but it's the only way to learn.

You obviously have never been to LGB at night(not a slam, don't take it that way please just read on). It a spaghetti bowl of intersecting taxiways and runways. There is 5 runways with a whole mess to taxiways to get you around all of them. two run east/west, two run north/south, and then there is one that splits them all. If I were told to side step on 1.5 mile final, I'd rather be told to enter a base for the paralleling runway, because in a light airplane, thats how far apart they are.

 

[granlistillo]

Some really, really bad advice there.
1. Unable does not give you clearance to land.
2. The runway NEVER belongs to the pilot. The local controller owns the runway.
3. What is the FAA's recommended taxi speed?
4. Tie up the local controller frequency with a demand for a phone number and you may be in trouble.

A. Dude, we call the tower all the time in the airlines when they make mistakes or put us in a predicament for a phone number. And yes, your comms make suck but at our level we don't tie up the airways.
B. If he was given a clearance to land and turn off on an inactive runway. If he needs to set the parking brake to figure out, do a checklist or figure at where he is or sort something out it is his runway. We have shutdown several runways, for mechanical problems. Once cleared buddy that runway belongs to the PIC.
C. Since you obviously don't fly for a living or anything larger than a bellanca I would use suggest you pick up a FAR AIM and find the answer to taxi speed that any student pilot should know. The tower can complain all he wants, but if he is the PIC. period. If he runs off a runway on a turnoff, the accident is not going to get pegged on a bully controller.
Your most stupid statement is obviously saying unable doesn't give you clearance to land. If he is not in a position to make that sidestep, it is up to the controller to come up with another plan. And this turning for the numbers crap depends largely on the pilots skill and judgement to help the controller out.
Myself I never have problems with controllers, and we as crews usually bust our butts to work with them but I have had captains ask for numbers chew ass on controllers more than once.
If you are incapable of understanding how PIC perogatives, maybe you shouldn't post here.

 

[fholbert]

A. Dude, we call the tower all the time in the airlines when they make mistakes or put us in a predicament for a phone number.

I never said otherwise. I did say one should not tie up the local controller frequency with that request.

Once cleared buddy that runway belongs to the PIC.

That's simply not true. ATC can take the runway back with a simple Takeoff/Landing clearance canceled - Taxi off the runway.

Your most stupid statement is obviously saying unable doesn't give you clearance to land.

Are you disputing that?

If he is not in a position to make that sidestep, it is up to the controller to come up with another plan.

I agree, the other plan will be Go around, fly runway heading. The pilot may also do that without direction. The missed approach path is always protected by ATC.

I have had captains ask for numbers chew ass on controllers more than once.

Most pilots and controllers handle them self in a more professional way. Very little chew-ass happens and rarely will the pilot speak directly with the controller. The controller is working traffic and can't talk on the phone so the supervisor takes the call.

When they do call usually the pilot is wrong. At least in my experience. They knew how to fly the plane but sometimes weak on regs and procedures. Pilots who learned to fly in the military then moved to the airlines with little or no GA experience were the worse. I was directly involved in a few.

A 737 pilot coming off the high speed almost hit a King Air on the parallel taxiway. All this before he contacted ground (me). He called the tower upset because, according the the 737 Pilot, tower had cleared him to the gate, we were way to busy for that. The tapes didn't support him. Taxi across 26R, ground .7 on the other side.

A MD-80 cleared for a visual approach couldn't see traffic because he was IMC, and said so on the radio. When he called approach control it was okay because he was on a IFR flight plan. According to him I was wrong to send him around because it was just a small cloud and he had returned to VMC before I sent him around. Wow!

I kept a 727 at 6000 runway heading for over 20 miles. He was mad too. I simply didn't have a strip (flight plan) on him. Come to find out he had transposed the transponder code AND was using the wrong flight number. At least he knew it was a United flight.

It was pretty rare for a pilot to call the tower and not calm down when he heard the other side of the story. I don't remember it ever happening to me. Don't get me wrong, there were times they should have called but didn't.

 

[ChasenSFO]

Up here in NorCal the only nasty controller I've run into is at LVK. Always have issues with him.

"Cessna 123 YOU TURNED OVER THE HOUSES, DON'T TURN OVER THE HOUSES!"
"Roger"(fair enough, I turned too late, no need to yell though)
"Cessna 123 YOU TURNED OVER THE HANGARS!"
"Roger...I was just trying to stay clear of the houses..."
"Time it so you go between them next time....SAY ALTITUDE"
"1300"
"PATTERN ALTITUDE IS 1400!"
"Roger, I just got to 1400"(plane ahead of me never climbed past 1000)
"Keep the climb going faster! Cleared for the option".(I was climbing out at the standard rate).

I swear I just picture his head spinning around a couple times and then exploding when I hear his voice. Guy needs a chill pill.

 

[Douglas]

One busy day a pilot was given a complicated pattern entry procedure due to blimps, helicopters, airplanes and banners all being in the same local area.
The pilot came back with a simple, "roger".
The controller came back with a low, slow, cold icy stare of a "Roger what."

I dug it.

 

[ChasenSFO]

"Roger what."

 

[Champcar]

Is their anything keeping pilots from being an a hole right back to the controller, other than fear of getting denied landing clearance?

I understand the whole professionalism, dignity, safety aspect of just taking it like a man and move on. But pilots have bad days too.

 

[granlistillo]

Most pilots and controllers handle them self in a more professional way. Very little chew-ass happens and rarely will the pilot speak directly with the controller. The controller is working traffic and can't talk on the phone so the supervisor takes the call.

Maybe reading too much into this. We have filed ASAP reports and made calls for getting clrd rnav departures and then getting a vectored departure on TO clrnc. I landed behind an A340 hand on the TOGA switch as it lifted off when we were between the MM and IM, touch down near the aimpoints with severe turbulence in the flare not from the wake but from the jet wash. I hadn't even turned off on the high speed when before the Captain called and said give me a number. And yes we know it was the supervisor.

I understand the TO clearance cancelled perfectly, but we have had a nose wheel steering problem that occurred on line up and we couldn't turn off safely in the captains estimation using differential power and braking, so we shut down the runway unfortunately.

My message to the OP was to remind him that he is PIC and while he must follow clearances, there are times they must be refused. Hopefully both guys are trying to work together. I have never had an argument with a controller, but I am not going to fly through a CB regardless what his radar says.

I had no problems with anything the controller said to the original poster except to hurry up and get off the runway. If he landed in the touchdown zone, there is no requirement for him to be bullied to taxi at VR speed to ry 35.
My intent to the OP was not to get him to fight with controllers, but to remember he is the PIC, and not to be bullied into do something unsafe or beyond his capabilities. You seem to take it that I was advocating that. Manners and professionalism seem to go along way with avoiding that. Peace

 

[FlyingSig]

That's simply not true. ATC can take the runway back with a simple Takeoff/Landing clearance canceled - Taxi off the runway.

But you may only cancel a takeoff/landing clearance for safety reasons. Doing so for any other reason violates your 7110.65
Canceling a clearance is the controllers version of emergency authority (the same authority that every PIC has).

When a takeoff/landing clearance is receive, yes, the pilot does own that runway unless safety becomes compromised.

The example above the plane had already landed. If separation was too close with landing traffic behind him, that's not the pilot on the runway's problem and the safe action is for the pilot on final to go around... not for the controller to hurry somebody off the runway.


In reference to your 727 story on runway heading for 20 miles... why was he even given a takeoff clearance if he was giving the wrong flight number? Granted this was what 20 or 30 years ago... but they still got IFR releases from the tower back then.