Line up and wait

Well most people here seem to disagree with me, but I think "line up and wait" is a step in the right direction. Aviation is the business of connecting people from all over the world. If we're the only ones who use "position and hold", it only makes sense that we use the ICAO standard "line up and wait".

Boris, you'll find that other countries have MUCH more stringent RT standards than the FAA. I've witnessed a case where ATC filed a report against a pilot for not using standard RT. hence, foreigners don't care for pilots who use non-standard phraseology (eg "on the roll" "4532 in the box" etc.)

There mos important point is the element of safety. Consider the pilot for whom English is a second language. He struggles to learn the ICAO R/T, and it doesn't help that there are many different accents. Now throw in some non-standard RT, and his situational awareness is greatly reduced. So when I get cleared for takeoff and you reply "on the roll", but he hears "on the hold", he taxis across the runway anyway, and the acident makes headlines.

For the sake of safety, let's all stick to ICAO standard phraseology.
 
I agree with the above poster. I see no problem with this. Why not align ourselves with ICAO phraseology? I personally think most US pilots' phraseology is horrible. Too much "cool pilot speak" going on out there, when we should just be using clear, concise, appropriate phraseology.

I'm definitely not a robot on the radio, but I do try to make my transmissions as clear as possible. Especially in Canada and Mexico, where the controller may not have English as a first language. I've never had problems communicating with controllers outside the US...

Be happy we weren't all forced to learn a second language to be a pilot, as every other airline not based in an English-speaking country was made to do. Could you imagine having to take French/German/Mandarin Chinese (gasp!!) in addition to your aviation courses?
 
FlyChicaga said:
I agree with the above poster. I see no problem with this.
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I'm on this side of the coin also. This stuff is all lingo anyway.

Sounds like the "debates" when airspace when alphabetical and "sequence reports" became METARs." Bunch of old farts combining a dislike of change with an jingoistic America first attitude and claiming the "logical" high ground when they do.
 
I've seen a few Mexican pilots just not understand when they said 'position and hold' eventually ATC said 'taxi into position and hold' and they understood that.
 
Chief Captain said:
Well most people here seem to disagree with me, but I think "line up and wait" is a step in the right direction. Aviation is the business of connecting people from all over the world. If we're the only ones who use "position and hold", it only makes sense that we use the ICAO standard "line up and wait".

Boris, you'll find that other countries have MUCH more stringent RT standards than the FAA. I've witnessed a case where ATC filed a report against a pilot for not using standard RT. hence, foreigners don't care for pilots who use non-standard phraseology (eg "on the roll" "4532 in the box" etc.)

There mos important point is the element of safety. Consider the pilot for whom English is a second language. He struggles to learn the ICAO R/T, and it doesn't help that there are many different accents. Now throw in some non-standard RT, and his situational awareness is greatly reduced. So when I get cleared for takeoff and you reply "on the roll", but he hears "on the hold", he taxis across the runway anyway, and the acident makes headlines.

For the sake of safety, let's all stick to ICAO standard phraseology.
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Same here.
 
Yeah, it's not a big deal folks. No need to get all worked up. A good part of the world has been saying "Line up and wait" for a long time. If you ever get in to international flying, you will too.
 
Chief Captain said:
Well most people here seem to disagree with me, but I think "line up and wait" is a step in the right direction. Aviation is the business of connecting people from all over the world. If we're the only ones who use "position and hold", it only makes sense that we use the ICAO standard "line up and wait".
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Should we switch to the metric system too? I don't know about aviation being the business of global connections. I thought it was the act of keeping metal aloft. The US doesn't need to conform to ICAO standards. Do we change our road signs to be the same as Mexican road signs in southern California? Does that make it unsafe?
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
Should we switch to the metric system too?
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Absolutely! I can't think of one reason why we shouldn't. You do realize that the metric system makes logical sense. What we use now is just a pile of random. Do I know how many feet are in a mile? Sure five thousand and something. How many meters in a kilometer. That's easy 1000.

Ok now to the original topic. Who cares? Is saying line up and wait really going to effect your mental ability as a pilot. I think the problem people have with it is that it doesn't sound as cool as position and hold. No one wants to admit that is what the problem is though.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
Should we switch to the metric system too?
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Probably should have along time ago, but in addition to the usual whining, there's a potential retooling cost involved that may make a change cost too much.

The dollars involved in a full metric move is a bit different than having pilots use a different English phrase.
 
CRJDriver said:
LOL, yup! I don't even call an SIC a Type rating, I call it a training endorsement;)
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By FAA standards it "can" be a training endorsement. By 121 standards you are typed... I am sick of people minimizing it. Please tell me what you have done that I haven't that earned you your "type"?
 
I'm a fan of "Position and hold" because of the correlation to other uses.

"Traffic holding in position downfield..." during a runway crossing clearance tells you exactly what you know based on being previously told to 'position and hold'.

"Taxi via Alpha, Bravo, hold short runway 35" tells you to STOP short of something, as in STOP MOVING. "Wait," is somewhat vague.. almost an indefinite modifier.

"Line up and wait," has no other real reference other than the actual event at hand.

Position and hold references other ideas in use on the airport surface. I think it makes for better communication.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
By FAA standards it "can" be a training endorsement. By 121 standards you are typed... I am sick of people minimizing it. Please tell me what you have done that I haven't that earned you your "type"?
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Doesn't change the fact that it's not worth anything for career advancement...
 
FlyChicaga said:
Actually, we should. It would make things much, much easier.

Globalization is real, folks.
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I don't agree that it will make things much easier. We are an extremely large country and converting everything to km and what not would be cost prohibitive.

We should do what is logical and efficient.


Even this phrase- why not change the ICAO book? position and hold literally what you are doing. "Hold" is a standard term. I can see "line up and hold."
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Position and hold is a much more logical phrase...

Never liked "line up and wait" and never will... Kinda like they'll say "say level" when they want you to say your altitude. Derp derp.
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What's so logical about "position and hold?" I'd say most non-native English speakers would learn the primary definition of "hold" as in holding an object. Not, "Hold" as in "Hold in position."

"Wait" is more easily understood by the masses.
 
Pilotdude3407 said:
By FAA standards it "can" be a training endorsement. By 121 standards you are typed... I am sick of people minimizing it. Please tell me what you have done that I haven't that earned you your "type"?
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I think the standards for my PIC ride were a more stringent than my SIC ride. (as they should be).
 
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