Lessons Learned as a CFI: Vol. 3

[Maximilian_Jenius]

OBS style VOR is still kind of important for a heading failure on a glass cockpit tho

Then that's either the failure of my CFI, or whoever wrote the IR program at the school I attended. As that was never taught to me. What was taught was if all fails use the magnetic compass. And how to fly with it with the lag and the errors/delays.

But it is what it is. My explanation will be that I after that failure, I learned to always be prepared.

 

[Stone Cold]

Then that's either the failure of my CFI, or whoever wrote the IR program at the school I attended. As that was never taught to me. What was taught was if all fails use the magnetic compass. And how to fly with it with the lag and the errors/delays.

But it is what it is. My explanation will be that I after that failure, I learned to always be prepared.

Hey Max… I dare you to set up a poll asking how many remember lag/lead and all the things you have to remember to use a mag compass to fly. I think I know how that’ll go.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Hey Max… I dare you to set up a poll asking how many remember lag/lead and all the things you have to remember to use a mag compass to fly. I think I know how that’ll go.

Besides @killbilly might be very few! Ask me about aviation weather. Okay no please don't!

But I'll get a good review of all of those things for CFI. Yay!

 

[Wardogg]

Hey Max… I dare you to set up a poll asking how many remember lag/lead and all the things you have to remember to use a mag compass to fly. I think I know how that’ll go.

Its all UNOS and ANDS.

 

[killbilly]

The DPE for my IR ride busted me on my oral for not knowing how to operate an ADF and an old school OBS style VOR. I was flying a DA40 with a full G-1000 suite. There was no ADF in the plane and no OBS style VOR. The plane had a digital HSI. His argument was what happens one day when you fly a plane with one or both in them? He sent me packing and was told to learn how to use them and be able to explain them on the retest. The chief pilot told me that he was known to do this to get the retest fee. Sucks dude was an ass, but I couldn't argue with him at the time. Nor can I blame him when I go to an interview of any type. I have to eat it and explain how I learned from that failure.

That sucks. I know DPEs can ask you anything they want, but only fail you for things that were defined in the ACS and/or his plan of action. I'd love for @Fly_Unity to weigh in on this one.

On the OBS/VOR thing....yeah, I can kind of see that one, especially since it's not THAT different from an HSI in terms of interpretation. I'm assuming you and your CFII spent time just on picking out, intercepting and tracking radials in green-needle mode, right?

OBS style VOR is still kind of important for a heading failure on a glass cockpit tho

I've been thinking about this. A solid understanding of OBS MODE is absolutely imperative in a G1000 airplane, especially when you're partial panel, but it's not like you've got a NAV2 and an old CDI unit slaved to it in a G1000. I'm wondering if the DPE just wanted to know that you had a basic understanding of course intercept and tracking techniques that would apply to ANY airplane with any sort of VOR receiver, because the concept is the same even if the instrument display data is different.

And, full disclosure: I have never shot an ADF/NDB approach in my life. I know how to do it, sort of, in theory, but I've never done it. And now I'm thinking about getting in the Redbird at the flight school and finding one of the old guys to teach me.

 

[killbilly]

Hey Max… I dare you to set up a poll asking how many remember lag/lead and all the things you have to remember to use a mag compass to fly. I think I know how that’ll go.

We've actually got an info-graphic we use at the flight school for this, that breaks the compass down into sectors on the cardinal points and builds in lead/lag time for rollout. It's only applicable to flying in these latitudes but, for this area, it's pretty accurate.

The *real* challenge there is figuring out how to make those adjustments when you're flying in some of the world's more exotic places like you do.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

There was no ADF in the plane and no OBS style VOR. The plane had a digital HSI. His argument was what happens one day when you fly a plane with one or both in them?

OBS on a VOR is pretty important, even in a glass cockpit. Really the only difference I can think of is that a G1000 can probably do it to an arbitrary waypoint with GPS, while the old school VOR is only going to go to the station. Still works exactly the same. And if the GPS isn't working for whatever reason, you are back to doing it the old school NAV radio way.

 

[killbilly]

I asked two DPEs about @Maximilian_Jenius 's scenario on the IR oral.

Both opined that it was awfully harsh of the DPE to fail him on that, when the language of the ACS clearly states that it's for the applicant's airplane. Here's what one DPE said to me:

"The Instrument Rating ACS AOO II, Preflight Procedures, Task B. Airplane Flight Instruments and Navigation Equipment objective states:
“Operation of their airplane’s applicable flight instrument system(s)”If the furnished airplane has an approach approved GPS navigator, we are required to test knowledge, risks and skill on that (per ACS Appendix 7, VI). The same for ADF, if installed. If no ADF is installed, I don’t test in it (knowledge, risk or skill).

Both agreed that a CFI-I should at least introduce the concept of VOR/OBS/NDB and use references from FAA pubs, so that the applicant at least has a cursory familiarity with the concepts and limitations.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

That sucks. I know DPEs can ask you anything they want, but only fail you for things that were defined in the ACS and/or his plan of action. I'd love for @Fly_Unity to weigh in on this one.

On the OBS/VOR thing....yeah, I can kind of see that one, especially since it's not THAT different from an HSI in terms of interpretation. I'm assuming you and your CFII spent time just on picking out, intercepting and tracking radials in green-needle mode, right?



I've been thinking about this. A solid understanding of OBS MODE is absolutely imperative in a G1000 airplane, especially when you're partial panel, but it's not like you've got a NAV2 and an old CDI unit slaved to it in a G1000. I'm wondering if the DPE just wanted to know that you had a basic understanding of course intercept and tracking techniques that would apply to ANY airplane with any sort of VOR receiver, because the concept is the same even if the instrument display data is different.

And, full disclosure: I have never shot an ADF/NDB approach in my life. I know how to do it, sort of, in theory, but I've never done it. And now I'm thinking about getting in the Redbird at the flight school and finding one of the old guys to teach me.

He told me to watch this video. That was it. I dumped that info quick after I passed IR. I'd have to watch that video again to understand that sweeping arm type CDI or the OBS style VOR. I guess that I'm officially a child of the magenta line i.e. "new school" type pilot. vs. "old school". Because I've never navigated with those type of compasses. Even in 2001 when I got my PPL, the C172R's had an HSI. I love HSI's. But yes during training pre checkride we did do green needles.

Simple Way to Determine Aircraft Position Using a VOR, CDI, and OBS - YouTube

 

[CFI A&P]

The DPE for my IR ride busted me on my oral for not knowing how to operate an ADF and an old school OBS style VOR. I was flying a DA40 with a full G-1000 suite. There was no ADF in the plane and no OBS style VOR. The plane had a digital HSI. His argument was what happens one day when you fly a plane with one or both in them? He sent me packing and was told to learn how to use them and be able to explain them on the retest. The chief pilot told me that he was known to do this to get the retest fee. Sucks dude was an ass, but I couldn't argue with him at the time. Nor can I blame him when I go to an interview of any type. I have to eat it and explain how I learned from that failure.

Thats kind of a double dick move on behalf of your school. They knew this DPE did this on occasion and still failed to prepare you for that possibility. You own them a swift kick to the junk for setting you up for failure.

That being said, I sort of agree that you shouldn’t have been asked that as it isn’t representative of the TAA you were using at the time, but also sort of agree with the DPE, because your certificate doesn’t say private pilot, instrument rating with a limitation prohibiting NDBs.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Thats kind of a double dick move on behalf of your school. They knew this DPE did this on occasion and still failed to prepare you for that possibility. You own them a swift kick to the junk for setting you up for failure.

That being said, I sort of agree that you shouldn’t have been asked that as it isn’t representative of the TAA you were using at the time, but also sort of agree with the DPE, because your certificate doesn’t say private pilot, instrument rating with a limitation prohibiting NDBs.

The DPE had a reputation. My first two checkrides were with another DPE, but they were cancelled twice. The first time for availability, the second for weather. He was a Skywest pilot and had to cancel to work. It was the school that came down on my instructor and said no more waiting, push him through and assigned me this grisly old DPE. My instructor came and told me the bad news. He said bone up on your stuff, he gave me a gouge to study he said know everything cold. I did. He said just think if you pass with ______ you can pass with anyone. Also yeah, I was also under the understanding that you can't be tested on anything that wasn't on the plane. But there we were at least for ADF's.

 

[Fly_Unity]

That sucks. I know DPEs can ask you anything they want, but only fail you for things that were defined in the ACS and/or his plan of action. I'd love for @Fly_Unity to weigh in on this one.

If the equipment is not in the aircraft, I do not test for it.
I did 6 instrument check-rides last week in a Garmin 1000 equipped aircraft with a very popular school, and I was very disappointed with every applicant in the knowledge and understanding of a RMI, VOR, HSI, CDI. (RMI can be displayed on a G1000 and you can track and intercept a radial as if it was an NDB pointer).

I have done many approaches with RMIs, NDBs back in my cargo days, and I understand that this type of flying is going away, but its hard for me and many examiners to see these skills diminish.

Here is what I typically see weak with Garmin 1000 applicants:

1. How a Localizer works. Will the CDI work the same regardless what I set on the OBS? How will it work? like a VOR or will it work the same regardless what OBS it is set to?

2. Reverse Sensing. Is there such a thing as Reverse sensing with an HSI using a VOR? (4 applicants said "yes if it is set wrong", the other 2 applicants responded with "yes there is reverse sensing with an HSI, however the Garmin 1000 is smart enough to recognize it and correct it".

3. Reverse Sensing with a LOC and an HSI. Can it happen? What about a Back-course? (NOTE, IF the gray/shaded side of the localizer is NOT on the right side of the CDI, you will get reverse sensing regardless if it is a back-course or normal course).

4. How to use OBS mode, and why or when would you use it.

Note, all 6 applicants did pass their checkrides. But I spent quite a bit of time debriefing them. Per the ACS, an applicant is unsat when they meet any of the five criteria:

It does no good to do "Gotcha, you need to re-test", questions. Especially with equipment that is not in the aircraft. I have had many stories about "my checkrides" that were not even remotely close to the reason I unsat them, so I take these stories with a grain of salt although I'm sure they happen. There has been a big push by the FAA for better standardization with DPEs recently, so hopefully student experiences start to improve.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

If the equipment is not in the aircraft, I do not test for it.
I did 6 instrument check-rides last week in a Garmin 1000 equipped aircraft with a very popular school, and I was very disappointed with every applicant in the knowledge and understanding of a RMI, VOR, HSI, CDI. (RMI can be displayed on a G1000 and you can track and intercept a radial as if it was an NDB pointer).

I have done many approaches with RMIs, NDBs back in my cargo days, and I understand that this type of flying is going away, but its hard for me and many examiners to see these skills diminish.

Here is what I typically see weak with Garmin 1000 applicants:

1. How a Localizer works. Will the CDI work the same regardless what I set on the OBS? How will it work? like a VOR or will it work the same regardless what OBS it is set to?

2. Reverse Sensing. Is there such a thing as Reverse sensing with an HSI using a VOR? (4 applicants said "yes if it is set wrong", the other 2 applicants responded with "yes there is reverse sensing with an HSI, however the Garmin 1000 is smart enough to recognize it and correct it".
View attachment 63259

3. Reverse Sensing with a LOC and an HSI. Can it happen? What about a Back-course? (NOTE, IF the gray/shaded side of the localizer is NOT on the right side of the CDI, you will get reverse sensing regardless if it is a back-course or normal course).

4. How to use OBS mode, and why or when would you use it.

Note, all 6 applicants did pass their checkrides. But I spent quite a bit of time debriefing them. Per the ACS, an applicant is unsat when they meet any of the five criteria:

View attachment 63258

View attachment 63261
View attachment 63260
It does no good to do "Gotcha, you need to re-test", questions. Especially with equipment that is not in the aircraft. I have had many stories about "my checkrides" that were not even remotely close to the reason I unsat them, so I take these stories with a grain of salt although I'm sure they happen. There has been a big push by the FAA for better standardization with DPEs recently, so hopefully student experiences start to improve.

Sounds like schools with G-1000 equipped planes, like my pilot mill. Aren't teaching knowledge and understanding of a RMI, VOR, HSI, CDI anymore. I know that I couldn't, without training fly an ILS with an old school CDI. Because the last time I did any training in a six pack equipped plane was in 2001 when I got my PPL. 16 yrs. later when I picked flying up again most planes (at least at pilot mills) were all G-1000 equipped. Also are there even any back course approaches still out there? I know that KTUS used to have a back course approach to rwy 29R. But its been replaced by GPS approaches.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

If the equipment is not in the aircraft, I do not test for it.
I did 6 instrument check-rides last week in a Garmin 1000 equipped aircraft with a very popular school, and I was very disappointed with every applicant in the knowledge and understanding of a RMI, VOR, HSI, CDI.

I suspect you would be equally disappointed with pilots doing IPCs, and CFII's like me giving instruction for them even more

The reality is that the scenarios where knowing how to do these things don't actually happen in a training environment around here all that often, and airspace can make it even harder to practice any of it VFR. (most of the stations are in airspace we can't easily overfly without vectors). Teaching in an old-school VOR only airplane does make it better in my experience so far.

But for the glass cockpit student, someday they will get a instruction like "Join the 165 radial of VVV vortac and continue on the 035 radial outbound to MRFIX" and have no idea how to do it. I know that's still true, because that was me 15 years ago, and I'm sure I'm not teaching it any better than my CFII's did for me.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Also are there even any back course approaches still out there? I know that KTUS used to have a back course approach to rwy 29R. But its been replaced by GPS approaches.

Real world, GA flying -- 99% of the time it is an RNAV approach. Airports I go to don't have an ILS, but nice to have one as an alternate.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I got back into a sort of instructing today and it was pretty fun. Our local high school started an aviation club to spark some interest in kids. They’ve got pc based sims set up with x-plane and I guess there is some sort of GAMA sponsored competition.

It’s pretty informal, but it was fun to help out.

 

[MikeD]

@killbilly EPs Emergency Procedures. For the purpose of what we are discussing here, although Mike Favinger is correct in the mil definition of C4; what we are referring to here for radio comms is comms that are Clear, Concise, Correct, and most importantly…..sound Cool. Be clear in what the hell it is you are saying. Keep the transmissions short: don’t key the damn mic and then think, key it and talk, knowing what the hell it is you are going to say beforehand; and dont drone on and on with a transmission that should take no more than a few seconds. Use correct terminology…..don’t use “uh” and don’t start transmissions with “Aaaaand”. Those are idiotic filler words that give the impression that you don’t know what you’re talking about or what you want to talk about. And lastly sound cool as a jewel when doing all of the above……by just letting the comms flow like you’re saying what you mean and meaning what you say, in a short and clear manner. Don’t sound like a moron over the freq. @Derg and I have spoken over the radio before when we were both departing the same airport in our individual Airbus aircraft.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

I worked for a DPE for a few years. Super popular and busy guy.

You would not believe the things I saw, just like I’ll never believe another story from a failed student or recommending instructor again. The mental gymnastics are amazing.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I got back into a sort of instructing today and it was pretty fun. Our local high school started an aviation club to spark some interest in kids. They’ve got pc based sims set up with x-plane and I guess there is some sort of GAMA sponsored competition.

It’s pretty informal, but it was fun to help out.

Super cool story Joe! That's awesome that you're volunteering for the kids. I bet that they were pretty impressed to have a 747 pilot come out to their aviation club.

@Derg and I have spoken over the radio before when we were both departing the same airport in our individual Airbus aircraft.

Story time!

 

[killbilly]

If the equipment is not in the aircraft, I do not test for it.
I did 6 instrument check-rides last week in a Garmin 1000 equipped aircraft with a very popular school, and I was very disappointed with every applicant in the knowledge and understanding of a RMI, VOR, HSI, CDI. (RMI can be displayed on a G1000 and you can track and intercept a radial as if it was an NDB pointer).

I have done many approaches with RMIs, NDBs back in my cargo days, and I understand that this type of flying is going away, but its hard for me and many examiners to see these skills diminish.

Here is what I typically see weak with Garmin 1000 applicants:

1. How a Localizer works. Will the CDI work the same regardless what I set on the OBS? How will it work? like a VOR or will it work the same regardless what OBS it is set to?

2. Reverse Sensing. Is there such a thing as Reverse sensing with an HSI using a VOR? (4 applicants said "yes if it is set wrong", the other 2 applicants responded with "yes there is reverse sensing with an HSI, however the Garmin 1000 is smart enough to recognize it and correct it".
View attachment 63259

3. Reverse Sensing with a LOC and an HSI. Can it happen? What about a Back-course? (NOTE, IF the gray/shaded side of the localizer is NOT on the right side of the CDI, you will get reverse sensing regardless if it is a back-course or normal course).

4. How to use OBS mode, and why or when would you use it.

Note, all 6 applicants did pass their checkrides. But I spent quite a bit of time debriefing them. Per the ACS, an applicant is unsat when they meet any of the five criteria:

View attachment 63258

View attachment 63261
View attachment 63260
It does no good to do "Gotcha, you need to re-test", questions. Especially with equipment that is not in the aircraft. I have had many stories about "my checkrides" that were not even remotely close to the reason I unsat them, so I take these stories with a grain of salt although I'm sure they happen. There has been a big push by the FAA for better standardization with DPEs recently, so hopefully student experiences start to improve.

Thanks for this. Appreciate it.