Legacy Hiring Tips

[Seggy]

I have a few friends of mine that just recently got on at your place. Would you say there is a certain amount of time to wait before their LOR would make a difference? They've all offered, but are all pretty new.

I know guys wrote LORs to their friends while they were on probation and have also set up the very important Chief Pilot meet and greet on probation at my place.

Thanks for the great write up @Seggy.

A question for you. I'm assuming you work for a major airline. I currently work for a company under part 135. Currently, I am a FO building SIC Turbine time. If all goes well, I should be captain in a few years and start to build my turbine PIC time. Is it common for 135 pilots to get hired with major/legacy airlines if they meet the qualifications, and are obviously a well rounded candidate? I hear 121 time is preferred, which I can see that. My goal is to bypass the regionals for QOL purposes. I'm gaining great experience in the aircraft I currently fly. I fly all over the US and surrounding countries/islands, in all sorts of weather. Would like to hear your opinion.

Thanks

I have to be honest with you, if you 'have a few years' to upgrade at your 135 place, I would look to see if you can make the switch to 121. I get the QOL purposes completely, but as @BobDDuck said, not having 121 time makes it a lot more difficult. I would like to hear what @mikecweb thoughts are. He is a 135/91 guy and has talked to recruiters. With that said, yes, you can get hired at my place and other majors/legacies with only 135 or 91 time, but you have to be very well rounded and have very good connections. They get you have the experience, but you are trying to get a job with guys who are 757/767 Captains at ACMI Carriers or furloughed from places like ATA. So being well rounded is absolutely key.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

How does one go about getting a CP M&G set up?

 

[Seggy]

How does one go about getting a CP M&G set up?

Pilots at my company are given an opportunity to set up a meeting with someone they want to get on, their Chief Pilot, and themselves.

 

[Gators]

Good advice, thx for the write up!

 

[Freecos]

Not having 121 time certainly makes it more difficult to get on with a 121 major/legacy. It's probably not impossible, but it will become much more about who you know then what your qualifications are. I think the reason for this is mostly that training and standards at a 121 regional are pretty much a known quantity (and quality) at another 121's hiring department. They know almost all 121 airlines are set up the same way and (mostly) held to the same standards. There is no way to know that about a 135 outfit unless that specific shop is known to the people doing the hiring somewhere else.

Very valid point. Thanks for the advice.

I have to be honest with you, if you 'have a few years' to upgrade at your 135 place, I would look to see if you can make the switch to 121. I get the QOL purposes completely, but as @BobDDuck said, not having 121 time makes it a lot more difficult. I would like to hear what @mikecweb thoughts are. He is a 135/91 guy and has talked to recruiters. With that said, yes, you can get hired at my place and other majors/legacies with only 135 or 91 time, but you have to be very well rounded and have very good connections. They get you have the experience, but you are trying to get a job with guys who are 757/767 Captains at ACMI Carriers or furloughed from places like ATA. So being well rounded is absolutely key.

I was contemplating that. I have a few months before I hit 1500 TT. I have the financials to make the move, so I am prepared for that. The big decision would be which regional to go to. I've been reading a lot about the regionals out there and it seems to be a fluctuation on which regional is the "one" to go to. When I say which regional I want to go to, don't think that I'm saying I am entitled to work there just because I have the time. I've read several posts where it seemed these people were entitled to a job just because they have the time. I do believe I'd be a good candidate given my prior work history not only in aviation but in public safety.

Another scenario is to build my TPIC for a few years and make a short jump into the regionals (given the regionals hire me). Only worry is how the regionals will be in a few years. Then again if I make a jump now, I will still have the same fear.

 

[mikecweb]

@Freecos
IF you can afford to goto the regionals, go. The pay is only bad at most of them for a year or two and then you are on par with most 135 places. If the music doesn't stop you'll upgrade there two. Fact is there ARE guys that get hired at the Legacy airlines from only a 135/91 background. They are few and far between though. It's all about stacking the deck in your favor.

I only give my situation because @Seggy brought me into this but I think I'm probably the last one to be giving career advice.
A glance at my experience shows a shade under 5,000 hours never really been a copilot except for 6-7 months out of my 10 year career. I've flown international but not real international. Handful of type ratings and checked all the boxes except for 121. CFI->Prop Freight->Jet Freight->Prop Freight->Corporate->Corporate Management Pilot. I'm fairly well networked on the non-121 side of the house but have some 121 friends. Never been out of a job since college. Always been able to get something. Overall I've been pretty lucky. I always was of the school of thought that it didn't matter what section of the FARs you fly under just as long as you keep your nose clean (No DUIs, speeding tickets, out of the newspapers), hold a good professional cockpit, and stay up on the industry I'd be able to goto Delta(#1 since I was 6 years old), FedEX or UPS.

The problem is yea I'm sure eventually if I keep doing what I'm doing I'll be able to get picked up by a Legacy. When that might be, who knows? I know enough to not want to be on the bottom of a wave. I live in a very desirable(to some) area of the country. I don't want to sit reserve or hold crappy lines for 20 years commuting to SEA.

Personally I never went to the Regionals because I couldn't afford it. Some say "oh sure you can you just have to tighten your belt". I truly CANNOT afford to goto a regional. I went fast into debt with college and have 10 year student loans that are almost done but they are more then most mortgages plus a maid. I made what I thought were the correct decisions. Goto a true school with a campus, get the life experience as well as the piece of paper. Get a degree in something that relates to my career and find a path to pay for it. I'd be lying if it doesn't frustrate me that someone can get an online degree or something in turf and grass science and "be ahead" of you in this career. I wish I had a website like JC when I was in high school. News Flash, HS Guidance Counselors are worthless.

Who knows what happens from here but I can't see how 135/91 is a better life for me going forward. My next job will have a CBA, and that's the only requirement. You truly haven't seen the bottom of the industry until you have others trying to take your job on a daily (almost) basis, literally other pilots meeting the airplane to talk to your boss about doing your job for less. Those aren't internet tales, I've seen it happen and it happens more often than I can stomach.
​

Wow that was a lot of rambling but I'm at a pretty big crossroad right now and it is pretty frustrating.

tl;dr go 121 and network.

 

[Lee D]

Good stuff Seggy!

 

[KLB]

@Freecos
IF you can afford to goto the regionals, go. The pay is only bad at most of them for a year or two and then you are on par with most 135 places. If the music doesn't stop you'll upgrade there two. Fact is there ARE guys that get hired at the Legacy airlines from only a 135/91 background. They are few and far between though. It's all about stacking the deck in your favor.

I only give my situation because @Seggy brought me into this but I think I'm probably the last one to be giving career advice.
A glance at my experience shows a shade under 5,000 hours never really been a copilot except for 6-7 months out of my 10 year career. I've flown international but not real international. Handful of type ratings and checked all the boxes except for 121. CFI->Prop Freight->Jet Freight->Prop Freight->Corporate->Corporate Management Pilot. I'm fairly well networked on the non-121 side of the house but have some 121 friends. Never been out of a job since college. Always been able to get something. Overall I've been pretty lucky. I always was of the school of thought that it didn't matter what section of the FARs you fly under just as long as you keep your nose clean (No DUIs, speeding tickets, out of the newspapers), hold a good professional cockpit, and stay up on the industry I'd be able to goto Delta(#1 since I was 6 years old), FedEX or UPS.

The problem is yea I'm sure eventually if I keep doing what I'm doing I'll be able to get picked up by a Legacy. When that might be, who knows? I know enough to not want to be on the bottom of a wave. I live in a very desirable(to some) area of the country. I don't want to sit reserve or hold crappy lines for 20 years commuting to SEA.

Personally I never went to the Regionals because I couldn't afford it. Some say "oh sure you can you just have to tighten your belt". I truly CANNOT afford to goto a regional. I went fast into debt with college and have 10 year student loans that are almost done but they are more then most mortgages plus a maid. I made what I thought were the correct decisions. Goto a true school with a campus, get the life experience as well as the piece of paper. Get a degree in something that relates to my career and find a path to pay for it. I'd be lying if it doesn't frustrate me that someone can get an online degree or something in turf and grass science and "be ahead" of you in this career. I wish I had a website like JC when I was in high school. News Flash, HS Guidance Counselors are worthless.

Who knows what happens from here but I can't see how 135/91 is a better life for me going forward. My next job will have a CBA, and that's the only requirement. You truly haven't seen the bottom of the industry until you have others trying to take your job on a daily (almost) basis, literally other pilots meeting the airplane to talk to your boss about doing your job for less. Those aren't internet tales, I've seen it happen and it happens more often than I can stomach.
​

Wow that was a lot of rambling but I'm at a pretty big crossroad right now and it is pretty frustrating.

tl;dr go 121 and network.

You need to go to a job fair where Alaska Airlines will be. They are the major that will MOST likely hire someone with your background. I got the most positive feedback from them at the last job fair I attended. They, like most majors, like to see what you do outside of the regular line pilot duties. Highlighting that you manage a corporate department will be a great advantage for you. Add to that you've done it and you're still a young whipper snapper makes it even more impressive. You will have to go to a job fair ( dress sharply) and get some face time with the HR people.

I recommend the OBAP jobs fair. By day two of the jobs fair there is no line to talk to HR personnel at all of the companies. (Don't attend on day one because all of the non members attend on day one and there are actually lines and wait times.).

 

[Screaming_Emu]

The general rule is once you are off probation you can start writing letters. However, with how Airline Apps is set up, all it takes is an employee number to validate the recommendation is from "in house" so a person's status shouldn't matter too much as far as getting an interview goes. How helpful that LOR is once you get the interview will probably vary from company to company. Where I'm at management (and some of the dinosaur captains) make a huge, huge (did I mention it's a big deal?) about being on probation so a LOR from a newbie probably wouldn't help much. Other places it may not matter.

Gracias amigo.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I know guys wrote LORs to their friends while they were on probation and have also set up the very important Chief Pilot meet and greet on probation at my place.

Thank you sir!

 

[Freecos]

@Freecos
IF you can afford to goto the regionals, go. The pay is only bad at most of them for a year or two and then you are on par with most 135 places. If the music doesn't stop you'll upgrade there two. Fact is there ARE guys that get hired at the Legacy airlines from only a 135/91 background. They are few and far between though. It's all about stacking the deck in your favor.

I only give my situation because @Seggy brought me into this but I think I'm probably the last one to be giving career advice.
A glance at my experience shows a shade under 5,000 hours never really been a copilot except for 6-7 months out of my 10 year career. I've flown international but not real international. Handful of type ratings and checked all the boxes except for 121. CFI->Prop Freight->Jet Freight->Prop Freight->Corporate->Corporate Management Pilot. I'm fairly well networked on the non-121 side of the house but have some 121 friends. Never been out of a job since college. Always been able to get something. Overall I've been pretty lucky. I always was of the school of thought that it didn't matter what section of the FARs you fly under just as long as you keep your nose clean (No DUIs, speeding tickets, out of the newspapers), hold a good professional cockpit, and stay up on the industry I'd be able to goto Delta(#1 since I was 6 years old), FedEX or UPS.

The problem is yea I'm sure eventually if I keep doing what I'm doing I'll be able to get picked up by a Legacy. When that might be, who knows? I know enough to not want to be on the bottom of a wave. I live in a very desirable(to some) area of the country. I don't want to sit reserve or hold crappy lines for 20 years commuting to SEA.

Personally I never went to the Regionals because I couldn't afford it. Some say "oh sure you can you just have to tighten your belt". I truly CANNOT afford to goto a regional. I went fast into debt with college and have 10 year student loans that are almost done but they are more then most mortgages plus a maid. I made what I thought were the correct decisions. Goto a true school with a campus, get the life experience as well as the piece of paper. Get a degree in something that relates to my career and find a path to pay for it. I'd be lying if it doesn't frustrate me that someone can get an online degree or something in turf and grass science and "be ahead" of you in this career. I wish I had a website like JC when I was in high school. News Flash, HS Guidance Counselors are worthless.

Who knows what happens from here but I can't see how 135/91 is a better life for me going forward. My next job will have a CBA, and that's the only requirement. You truly haven't seen the bottom of the industry until you have others trying to take your job on a daily (almost) basis, literally other pilots meeting the airplane to talk to your boss about doing your job for less. Those aren't internet tales, I've seen it happen and it happens more often than I can stomach.
​

Wow that was a lot of rambling but I'm at a pretty big crossroad right now and it is pretty frustrating.

tl;dr go 121 and network.

Thanks for the detailed response. I am very fortunate to be in good financial standing. All my flying bills are paid off, I started a lawn care business when I was 17 to pay off the bills and it did well! I have no other debts and I am single. So thankfully, I do have that advantage on my side to take a hit, which sounds sad, but its true.

I definitely don't have the networking that you have but I'm new to the game. I do believe I am a well rounded person. I am professional, knowledgeable, courteous, disciplined, trainable, and hardworking. I was a Firefighter/EMT for a few years and that helped possess a lot of great qualities.

 

[Freecos]

You need to go to a job fair where Alaska Airlines will be. They are the major that will MOST likely hire someone with your background. I got the most positive feedback from them at the last job fair I attended. They, like most majors, like to see what you do outside of the regular line pilot duties. Highlighting that you manage a corporate department will be a great advantage for you. Add to that you've done it and you're still a young whipper snapper makes it even more impressive. You will have to go to a job fair ( dress sharply) and get some face time with the HR people.

I recommend the OBAP jobs fair. By day two of the jobs fair there is no line to talk to HR personnel at all of the companies. (Don't attend on day one because all of the non members attend on day one and there are actually lines and wait times.).

Where can I look for job fair announcements?

Thanks

 

[SIUAv8r]

great writeup @Seggy. Thank you.

 

[KLB]

Where can I look for job fair announcements?

Thanks

http://obap.org/

 

[skypilot6]

Great tips @Seggy, These tips can be applied to any part in aviation or any employment opportunity really. Every day you show up to work, have a positive attitude, a smile on your face, and be nice to everyone you meet, you never know who will help you in the future, and who won't.

 

[SteveC]

Thanks for the detailed response. I am very fortunate to be in good financial standing. All my flying bills are paid off, I started a lawn care business when I was 17 to pay off the bills and it did well! I have no other debts and I am single. So thankfully, I do have that advantage on my side to take a hit, which sounds sad, but its true.

...

@Derg, still looking for that über-like button.....

 

[z987k]

@Freecos

tl;dr go 121 and network.

As someone with no where near the experience as Mike, but close to the same career path up to this point, I concur.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I'll piggyback and say the Women in Aviation conf was great also. Lots of good people and the longest I waited was about 20 min to talk to a certain Atlanta-based 121 operator. United was about 15 minutes, everyone else less than 10.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

You need to go to a job fair where Alaska Airlines will be. They are the major that will MOST likely hire someone with your background. I got the most positive feedback from them at the last job fair I attended. They, like most majors, like to see what you do outside of the regular line pilot duties. Highlighting that you manage a corporate department will be a great advantage for you. Add to that you've done it and you're still a young whipper snapper makes it even more impressive. You will have to go to a job fair ( dress sharply) and get some face time with the HR people.

I second this also, see my post in the 'lateral move' thread. They seem like the most flexible major, especially if your willing to live in AK.