Lear down in Argentina - Fatal 4

[mikecweb]

We should talk at some point. Got the “good call” last week and now I am just waiting on a class date. Be nice to get some info on the MD lines, the plane etc.

For sure, congrats! Shoot me a PM. But in general you gotta want to fly it. If it’s just another airplane then you’re better off in a Boeing or if you’re a half bubble off plumb, the Airbus. Kidding, mostly. The MD program requires a ton of buy in but the reward is worth it IMO. But if you’re looking for best pure schedule and easiest training program choose something else.
(You may be in class with another JCer)

 

[arkflyr]

My 3 legs in a AirNet 35 jumpseat set a bar for skill and professionalism I remember to this day. Outstanding operation.

Quite clearly you weren’t riding with me.

In all seriousness the 35 is an old airplane derived from an even older one. An amazing machine in its day now it really shows gray around the temples compared to modern stuff. It was cool to fly some of the oldest ones at Airnet and then fly charter in one of the last built, you could see all the work they out in to modernizing the thing over the years. That also means knowing all the differences between the various systems they changed over the years as well which really adds up.

Flying it I was fortunate to have it as my first jet so I knew no better and I was working five nights a week with multiple legs so you figure it out pretty quick. Those guys in TEB that crashed a few years ago would have wrecked any airplane, their lack of airmanship and professionalism killed them.

TLDR it’s a 70s Porsche, cramped, bad climate control, and unforgiving. Know what you’re doing with it and it’s an absolute blast to fly.

 

[Brian29]

My first jet as well and I wouldn’t exchange those 2500hrs for anything. Keep her between the lines and she is a beautiful flying aircraft, albeit hamstrung by its vintage systems wise. Flying those things all hours of the day and in just about every known weather condition did more to make me a pilot than anything else I’ve encountered in this profession that’s for sure. Now the Citation X… there aren’t enough allowable adjectives on this site for me to adequately describe that hot pile of garbage.

 

[Roger Roger]

boom! On target. Haha.

The A model harrier especially in that paint scheme has a certain Cold War charm to it.

 

[Roger Roger]

I've flown the 35, 31, 40, and 45.

As pilot friendly as the 45 is, the 35 is it's polar opposite. It is not a beginner jet. Tiny wing, lots of mass out there if there's gas in the tip tanks. Unforgiving airplane.

The 31A was ok, ours were just abysmally maintained and it didn’t have enough gas for the mission we did. Stepping into the 35 was like a time warp. No altitude capture, autopilot only couples to the captains side, all kinds of weirdly specific checks that were supposed to be done every leg, weirdly positioned switches, stupidly high approach speeds especially on the circle to land…oh and don’t forget before you even hop in the airplane figuring out which word salad of mods have been done to it so you know which numbers to use.

 

[MikeD]

The A model harrier especially in that paint scheme has a certain Cold War charm to it.

always liked the A model Harriers, smaller and more sportier and challenging to fly than the larger B models that replaced them, with their longer fuselage and wider wingspan. When you see an A model in person, it’s not that big of a jet at all. Almost like an A-4 Skyhawk.

 

[Roger Roger]

always liked the A model Harriers, smaller and more sportier and challenging to fly than the larger B models that replaced them, with their longer fuselage and wider wingspan. When you see an A model in person, it’s not that big of a jet at all. Almost like an A-4 Skyhawk.

Only seen the B in person. Just remember it’s flight demo being absurdly loud.

 

[MikeD]

Only seen the B in person. Just remember it’s flight demo being absurdly loud.

they’re both pretty darn loud in hover flight. Not remotely as loud as the new F-35 though. There’s a few of the old As in museums. Next time you’re in TUS, we can hit up the Pima museum, where they have a USMC A model, a B model, an original Kestrel test Harrier, an RAF GR3, and one other one….Sea Harrier I think, all parked side by side on display.

 

[Boris Badenov]

If I flew hawkers or 747s, both of which make horrible pilots look good

I feel targeted.

 

[form810]

Maybe? They've been flying for almost 50 years and don't have a great safety record, with a few exceptions most of those accidents have been attributed to pilot error. I've worked with people (young and old) that can sit in the seat and it's like wearing a glove, others not so much. Flying with Clay in any Lear was like watching an artist. To be fair there have been a lot of STC's to the wing to make it more forgiving, but there have also been other additions like extended tip-tanks and the rear locker that add more weight and might make it a bit more tricky? I know although I respect them I hate working on them. And in any accident the MX will be scrutinized. Best to wait for the final report.

It's an almost neutrally stable aircraft, which is likely a vestige of its origination as a fighter/trainer. So, yeah, it's unforgiving. It's a joy to fly if you're an aviator with well-developed stick and rudder skills. It's a plane you need to continuously fly. And you do that, more often than not, with your fingertips and toe tips.

Except under competent tutelage, this is NOT a jet for the young. Pushing the A/P button in a Lear will not save you. (In most remaining 20 and 30 series Lears these days, the A/Ps don't even work, despite what the paperwork says.)

 

[knot4u]

It's an almost neutrally stable aircraft, which is likely a vestige of its origination as a fighter/trainer. So, yeah, it's unforgiving. It's a joy to fly if you're an aviator with well-developed stick and rudder skills. It's a plane you need to continuously fly. And you do that, more often than not, with your fingertips and toe tips.

Except under competent tutelage, this is NOT a jet for the young. Pushing the A/P button in a Lear will not save you. (In most remaining 20 and 30 series Lears these days, the A/Ps don't even work, despite what the paperwork says.)

Most? I understand you meant autopilot, not mechanics. Although I guess either might be possible. I was under the impression that RVSM requires at least one functioning autopilot, or maybe it was two?

 

[Wardogg]

The 31A was ok, ours were just abysmally maintained and it didn’t have enough gas for the mission we did. Stepping into the 35 was like a time warp. No altitude capture, autopilot only couples to the captains side, all kinds of weirdly specific checks that were supposed to be done every leg, weirdly positioned switches, stupidly high approach speeds especially on the circle to land…oh and don’t forget before you even hop in the airplane figuring out which word salad of mods have been done to it so you know which numbers to use.

Just out of curiosity what was the circling speed in the 35?

always liked the A model Harriers, smaller and more sportier and challenging to fly than the larger B models that replaced them, with their longer fuselage and wider wingspan. When you see an A model in person, it’s not that big of a jet at all. Almost like an A-4 Skyhawk.

My very first CO in 1994 told me once his initial pilot training class was 12 guys. 10 of them went to A model Harriers. All of them were dead from accidents.

 

[MikeD]

Just out of curiosity what was the circling speed in the 35?

i can remember circling to land from an approach in the 117 once with a computed 215 circling speed, and 195 touchdown at my given weight.

My very first CO in 1994 told me once his initial pilot training class was 12 guys. 10 of them went to A model Harriers. All of them were dead from accidents.

USMC lost almost half the A model fleet that they purchased. in accidents. Was a tricky plane, but interesting that the RAF didn’t have the same issues with their GR1s.

 

[Springer]

The MD-10-30 is an extremely honest airplane once you learn it,

Flew both the DC-10-40 (Pratt) and DC-10-30 (GE) and agree. Hard to make a bad landing.

 

[averettpilot]

The 35 was my first jet, and I was quite proud of how I performed getting that type (was also my ATP ride). Outside of that I absolutely hated the thing and will never be able to look at one without intense feelings of hate. This of course is probably due to the company I worked for that flew them.

My experience with Lears was the lowest of low points in my career and it wouldn’t hurt my feelings if I never saw one again.

On point to this accident though, RIP to those lost. Hopefully something can be learned to prevent it from occurring again.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

i can remember circling to land from an approach in the 117 once with a computed 215 circling speed, and 195 touchdown at my given weight.



USMC lost almost half the A model fleet that they purchased. in accidents. Was a tricky plane, but interesting that the RAF didn’t have the same issues with their GR1s.

Did the RAF flying them differently? Did they not hover as much?

Did we lose a lot in the transitions to/from hover?

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Did the RAF flying them differently? Did they not hover as much?

Did we lose a lot in the transitions to/from hover?

…but interesting that the RAF didn’t have the same issues with their GR1s.
[/QUOTE]

In the 90’s, a lot of RAF Harrier guys transitioned from other aircraft or were plowbacks.