Lawyers

The key to that is "the big firms." I'm pretty sure most lawyers out there aren't doing much better than a regional capt. Sure there's the chance to make a lot of money, but it's a pretty bloated field. That and 80 hour work weeks. Flying still sounds alright to me.
 
greaper007 said:
The key to that is "the big firms." I'm pretty sure most lawyers out there aren't doing much better than a regional capt.
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Yeah, but they also don't have to spend all their time away from home, and they don't have to wait to upgrade to make the $80-100K they do.

Look, man, my brother's not working for a firm, he puts in about 50-60 hours a week, and he'll be pushing six figures.

And besides, the whole thing that started this was the comment there's no way someone's making $80K in SLC, which is just flat out wrong.
 
I know that there are lawyers out there making that much right off the bat. However, my Dad's a senior 737 capt and one of his good friends is a pretty successful lawyer. Most years my dad makes more than him, that and he only works about 20 hours/week. Compared to the lawyers 50+. As far as time away from home, my dad was around a lot more than some of my friends parents that had "normal" jobs growing up. Most weeks he was home for 4 days. Granted he couldn't always schedule things like holidays or birthday's off, but we just celebrated them a different day. That never really bothered me.

All I'm saying is that I really thought about law school. I dropped out of flying my sophomore year. Switched over and got a History degree. I was all set to go to law school. However, I realized I really wasn't a three piece button down type and that I still loved planes. So I graduated and decided to start flying again. Spent a very brief time in a military aviation track DOR'ed and started flying civilian again. Now, when I was a pre law student the stories the prof's told were a lot like the griping on this board. Long hours, low pay, outrageous loans to pay. Another thing they all said was don't go into law if you don't love it. It's simply too bloated of a field unless you really love it, and not everyone makes six figures right off the bat. Sounds a lot like aviation to me.

I bet if we went to a lawyers message board we would find threads where attorneys debated ditching it all for a job as a pilot. I know my Dad's airline has pilots that used to be Doctors among other professions.

Now I'm 25 and back to living with my Dad while I go to flight school. Living with your parent(s) at 25 really Sucks. My girlfriend lives 500 miles away and I don't see myself as employable for at least another year. I question this fricking field everyday, and this post really made me question it again. The nice thing for me though is that I have a close family member in the industry that doesn't hate his job. My Dad doesn't always love his job, but he is pissed off about the age 60 rule. So he can't hate it that much. He's also convinced that the industry is going to get better. Considering that he's been on the civilian side for nearly 30 years, I believe him. I also figure that most of us are better off with the industry in a downturn right now. It has to eventually get better. If we're sitting there with PIC time we'll go right up with it.
 
tonyw said:
Yeah, but they also don't have to spend all their time away from home, and they don't have to wait to upgrade to make the $80-100K they do..
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Ah yes, the grass is always greener... :D
 
The reality is, there ain't no such thing as a perfect job. Everyone's got it's pros and cons. Period.

Hell, man, I'll bet you that if you asked a bar owner in Tahiti about his job, he'd ***** about how it's a pain to get the permits, a pain to find good help, and a pain to find a way to keep his edge. Oh, and the rent's way too high, too.
 
LOL Damn right Tony. Too bad people don't hate pilots as much as lawyers. We'd probably be making more money.
 
I think the debate between the two professions is a good one. However, I am still miffed at the fact that you can spend about 55K on your training and your first year you are making $18k. That just isn't right. Additionally, I believe the long-term job security is better in the legal field.

No matter what way you cut it all of it is work. You have to get up and go daily if you are going to make anything.
 
Ophir said:
I think the debate between the two professions is a good one. However, I am still miffed at the fact that you can spend about 55K on your training and your first year you are making $18k. That just isn't right. Additionally, I believe the long-term job security is better in the legal field.
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Compare that to what it costs to go to college and law school and compare that to $30-50K (and =much= less in some parts of the country) for many first year lawyers. Open the Sunday paper and look at the ads for $250 bankruptcies and $700 DUIs. The number of those ads is a pretty good indication of how bad things are for lawyers who were not able to get good positions in your community. And those are the ones who can afford to take out the ads!

Long-term job security varies a great deal. People who are in business for themselves generally have more job security than those who don't. One of the benefits of a legal practice is that, in the long term, you can't help but develop a following to some degree. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything. In just the past few years some very large law firms have simply closed their doors leaving a bunch of associates with no where to go. If you work for a company in-house, do you think that the trend toward downsizing doesn't affect the legal departments?

Comparing the top end of a graduating class who gets a job with a major firm with the rest of the profession is like comparing the pilot who graduated at the top of his class at the AF Academy, flew missions during a war, came back a hero and was able to use his connections to get quickly into the right seat of the "right" airline to the rest of pilots who struggle through teaching and carrying checks under Part 135 hoping to get their chance.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Compare that to what it costs to go to college and law school and compare that to $30-50K (and =much= less in some parts of the country) for many first year lawyers. Open the Sunday paper and look at the ads for $250 bankruptcies and $700 DUIs. The number of those ads is a pretty good indication of how bad things are for lawyers who were not able to get good positions in your community. And those are the ones who can afford to take out the ads!

Long-term job security varies a great deal. People who are in business for themselves generally have more job security than those who don't. One of the benefits of a legal practice is that, in the long term, you can't help but develop a following to some degree. But that doesn't necessarily mean anything. In just the past few years some very large law firms have simply closed their doors leaving a bunch of associates with no where to go. If you work for a company in-house, do you think that the trend toward downsizing doesn't affect the legal departments?

Comparing the top end of a graduating class who gets a job with a major firm with the rest of the profession is like comparing the pilot who graduated at the top of his class at the AF Academy, flew missions during a war, came back a hero and was able to use his connections to get quickly into the right seat of the "right" airline to the rest of pilots who struggle through teaching and carrying checks under Part 135 hoping to get their chance.
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As I stated earlier, you can go to law schoool here in UT, in-state, for about $9,000/yr. In fact, the school also states that if you factor in room/board/tuition and books it is about $19K/yr. Now take that cost and three years of your life in school and the earning potential vs. the pilot who spent the same amount of time and money. Perhaps your experience is different Mark but I went through my ratings very quickly and spend 2.5 years and about $55K getting there. Now I am sitting reserve for $18K/yr. I am guessing you are an attorney who has decided to be a pilot. I am going to interested to hear what you have to say when you get your first job with an airline or 135 operation.

With regards to your example of the AF war vet who comes out a hero, well that guy who gets hired today will be sitting behind all those infront of him with a better seniority number. There is no incentive to be good in the airlines, only to perform to standard.

And those attorneys who are doing cheap bankrupcy and DUI law, well I believe that is their choice. If you hang your own shingle in law you certainly take a risk. But I wouldn't characterize those people as being hard pressed and having to scrape the bottom of the law barrel. They are there because they chose to be there and typically are taking those cases because they are want to.
 
Ophir said:
I am guessing you are an attorney who has decided to be a pilot.
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Actually no. I'm a lawyer who plans to stay that way. Can't afford the pay cut this far into my career. I fly for personal enjoyment and business.

And those attorneys who are doing cheap bankruptcy and DUI law, well I believe that is their choice.
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Seems that you know about as much about the practice of law as I do about flying airlines. ;)
 
OK

So we have found our lawyers, we have found our pilots, and we have found our lawyer/pilots. From where I am sitting, it seems that those who are both seem to stay more on the lawyer side buisiness. Meaning, they practice law for a living and fly for fun. If there is any truth to this, why?

My question for those who have done both, is that I am about half way through a BS in commercial aviation and as much as I love flying, I have one or two doubts that I may not like the lifestyle. I also enjoy legal issuse. Now, if I could enjoy both, how can I go wrong? Is it a possibility to work in both fields at the same time? If so, what do you recommend? Am I waisting my money collecting all of my flight raitings and certificates then going to law school? If so, what do you recommend?

I appreciate getting back to the original intention of this thread.:)
 
lowandslow said:
Meaning, they practice law for a living and fly for fun. If there is any truth to this, why?
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There's probably some truth to it, although lawyers do burn out and mover on to other careers. The reasons are as many as there are people. My reason is pretty straightforward. Although I wanted to since I was a kid, I didn't start flying until I was 38. As a relatively successful lawyer who enjoyed what he did, I never gave an aviation career a single thought, except that maybe if I started younger...

I have no sage advice for you. Unless you're really exceptional, mixing careers - doing both - probably isn't realistic no matter what the careers. Even dogcatcher and electrician would come into conflict. Law and aviation? Both are pretty time-intensive and tiring.

Which way to go? Beats me. I'm not you.

Are you wasting your time? Probably not. If a flying career is really what you want, go for it. If you decide to switch gears, so what? Better that than be sitting around at the end thinking, "Gee, I coulda...."
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Unless you're really exceptional, mixing careers - doing both - probably isn't realistic no matter what the careers. Even dogcatcher and electrician would come into conflict. Law and aviation? Both are pretty time-intensive and tiring.

"
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Actually what I meant was not doing both careers at the same time but rather mixing the two into one, like an "aviation lawyer" if such a title exists.
 
lowandslow said:
Actually what I meant was not doing both careers at the same time but rather mixing the two into one, like an "aviation lawyer" if such a title exists.
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Sure. But I thought that was pretty much answered way back in the thread. There is a wide variety of things that fall into aviation law that are very different, and take completely different knowledge and skills.

The "aviation lawyer" who handles air crash liability cases is completely different from the one who handles aircraft sales transactions who is completely different from the one who handles regulatory compliance for 125, 135 and 121 operators who is completely different from the one who prosecutes or defends FAA enforcement actions who is completely different from the one who handles corporate issues form major carriers and aviation businesses.

In many of these cases, the "aviation lawyer" is closer to his non-aviation counterpart than she is to other "aviation lawyers". For example, an aviation lawyer who handles compliance issues for a operator has way more in common with his banking lawyer counterpart than he does with the other aviation lawyer who handles crash liability litigation.

No doubt though that your interest and knowledge of aviation would help and not hinder in many of these areas.

Two sites for you to look at.

1. Lawyer Pilots Bar Association: www.lpba.org It's an association of various aviation practitioners and lawyers who happen to be pilots.

2. NTSB Bar Association: www.ntsbbar.org A bit more of a focus on enforcement but still a variety of interests.

Browse the site and look at some of the programs they offer. There's definitely an aviation-focus to all of the seminars, but you'll still see some variety there, although not that much from the "pure business" end of the spectrum.
 
lowandslow said:
Actually what I meant was not doing both careers at the same time but rather mixing the two into one, like an "aviation lawyer" if such a title exists.
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Yes, there absolutely is. Check out the legal advice column in AOPA Pilot. That's written by a couple of aviation lawyers. There's also a huge law firm here in the DC area that specializes in aviation related issues, Ford Harrison. No, not the other way around. Don't make that mistake.
 
One of the things that i think everyone can agree on is that what ever you decide to do you should make that choice knowing that you will always face some desire to do different things if your life. Whether you are a pilot wanting to practice law or a lawyer wanting to fly for a living there will always be challenges to every profession and moments when the grass is greener. The one thing that seems to keep coming back in this thread is that you are curious if you can combine the two fields but the advice seems to be that as a lawyer you will typically practice in an area that makes the most sense to you when you are faced with the need to decide. Or in other words, if you were to decide here and now that you wanted to be an "aviation lawyer" you may be making a decision that is better suited to be made much later on down the road.

I would suggest just finishing your degree and getting the best grades possible. Once you are done take the LSAT's and see how you do. At that point you need to decide whether to be a pilot or a lawyer. If you decide to be a lawyer go to school and work your butt off, get on Law Review and market yourself as future attorney. Along the way all the questions you have now about combining the two will make more sense to you.

I think so much of this website is there for people to ask advice. And I think the intention of Doug and almost all the users here who have been around the block was to give that advice with one big caveat: Keep your options open at all times.
 
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