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lowandslow

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Does anybody know about the legal side of aviation? If a person were to go to law school with a four year commercial aviation degree, what type of job perspectives would they be looking at? Does anybody have any experience in this area, I would love to hear about it. I was thinking that maybe I could combine two of my passions, flying and winning arguments. I've also always had a thing for legal writing and any corporation dealing with as much money as the major airlines must need some lawyers in the mix somewhere. I would love to hear what you guys(and girls) have to say.

Ha ha, anybody know a law firm that lets the employees pilot the corporate planes?
 
I have a fraternity brother from ERAU who was a pilot that became a lawyer. I'll have to see what I can find out about him.
 
lowandslow said:
If a person were to go to law school with a four year commercial aviation degree, what type of job perspectives would they be looking at??
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Exactly what kind of aviation degree are you talking about? A business degree? Aviation science?

If it's a degree in business aviation, it might help you, slightly, if you wanted to be a lawyer for an airline or something like that. If it's aviation science, then you're SOL with that one, and you'll have the same prospects as anyone else in law school. A degree in aviation science is worthless.
 
There is a guy from Grand Rapids that might be able to give you some insight. Unfortunately he doesn't frequent JC (at least as far as I know), but you might try him through email (through AvWeb). He writes for AvWeb and Aviation Consumer and AOPA Pilot and is a practicing attorney as well as an accomplished pilot. Here's his short bio from AvWeb:
Rick Durden is a practicing aviation attorney who holds an ATP Certificate, with a type rating in the Cessna Citation, and Commercial privileges for gliders, free balloons and single-engine seaplanes. He is also an instrument and multi-engine flight instructor. Rick started flying when he was fifteen and became a flight instructor during his freshman year of college. He did a little of everything in aviation to help pay for college and law school including flight instruction, aerial application, and hauling freight.
In the process of trying to fly every old and interesting airplane he could, Rick has accumulated over 6,000 hours of flying time. In his law practice Rick regularly represents pilots, fixed base operators, overhaulers, and manufacturers. Prior to starting his private practice, he was an attorney for Cessna in Wichita for seven years. He is also a regular contributor to Aviation Consumer and AOPA Pilot.
The rest of Rick's columns are available in The Pilot's Lounge.
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If you get some response from Rick it would be nice if you could forward back to JC some of the things you learn.
 
Ralgha said:
Exactly what kind of aviation degree are you talking about? A business degree? Aviation science?

If it's a degree in business aviation, it might help you, slightly, if you wanted to be a lawyer for an airline or something like that. If it's aviation science, then you're SOL with that one, and you'll have the same prospects as anyone else in law school. A degree in aviation science is worthless.
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It's a BS in commercial aviation, but why would that be so bad? A person would have a better understanding of the industry, especially if he was representing a pilot or something like that.
 
It depends what you want to do. Being a lawyer in aviation can run from representing aviation businesses on non-aviation issues (think United's bankruptcy or Jeppesen's intellectual property) to representing smaller operators on regulatory issues (think Part 135 compliance) to representing individuals in FAA enforcement cases to personal injury on either side.

I really don't think =any= of them require an aviation-specific undergraduate degree. If you've ever seen the Paper Chase, the big line is that law school takes a brain full of mush and leave you "thinking like a lawyer." Kinda silly but true in a way: the successful law graduate has picked up a set of analysis tools that lave most of them with the ability to learn almost anything.
 
I would say the Aviation Science degree is far from "useless", particularly in this field. Having an firm concept of pilot issues, from the job itself to basic business concepts would lend itself well to someone that wanted to work representing pilots or airlines in negotiations, FAA enforcement or grievance stuff. Someone with just a business education would find themselves short of knowledge in a variety of the aspects that an aviation attorney might work. I know a few of them -- quite a few, actually -- so have a lot of perspective in this area. Many were pilots professionally prior to getting the law degree, others did go through a AS type degree program.
 
I'm a lawyer and a private pilot.

There is a huge range of job descriptions for attorneys, anything from basically filling out forms all day to arguing cases before the supreme court. Typically the level of specialization is so high that there is little crossover. For example, if you are a corporate lawyer for United, there is very little chance you would actually go to court and argue cases.

The legal work for an airline or other aviation employer is not going to be much different from any other corporation for the most part. The only exception would be that airlines will have departments to deal with the FAA regulated aspects of the business, like the legal side of aircraft maintenance and repair, pilot training, etc.

An educational background in aviation wouldn't hurt but will be far less important that your grades in law school and the school's reputation
 
JHines obviously knows best on this. But I would further contest that an aviation degree would be worthless. That statement has no merit. The fact is that Law Schools accept people with a wide variety of backgrounds nowdays. You don't need pre-law to get in. Once you are in the three year degree has so much to do with exposing you to vary specialties in law practice. This includes Administrative Law which governs all the CFR title 14 rules for aviation. In this realm of law you would be defending clients in violation of CFR's against a Administrative Law Judge. The ALJ hears cases that make it past the FAA enforcement procedures and need to adjudicated. This type of court is quite different that civil or criminal courts but allows for similar appeals processes.

I think the bottom line is that if you become a lawyer and you are a pilot you would be better suited to work in administrative law. However, this would also mean that you would need to find a firm that practices in this area. I think there are only a couple of firms in the SLC that do this. It is quite specialized. While you in law school you would make a decision to pursue a certain specialty. This is thought that constantly rolls through my head too.
 
moxiepilot said:
i'd say focus on bankruptcy law, you may need it being a pilot and having gone through law school :)
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Another baseless statement. Right now if you go to University of Utah In-State, the estimated tuition, housing, food and books bill per year is almost $19,000. Most graduates found their first year pay to be in the mid $80,000 range. I think you might be able to handle paying back those loans.
 
Ophir said:
Another baseless statement.
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Um, there was that smiley at the end of his comment. It was a joke. (BTW, what was the other baseless staement?)

Besides, I thought there were few "baseless statements" in your earlier post as well, like

I think the bottom line is that if you become a lawyer and you are a pilot you would be better suited to work in administrative law.
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I'm not sure why you would think that. As JHines and I both pointed out, the aviation industry has a wide variety of legal needs, most of which have nothing to do with aviation. And lawyer + pilot does not necessarily equal aviation lawyer, which itself doesn't mean much since "aviation law" covers a lot of territory.

and

While you in law school you would make a decision to pursue a certain specialty.
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With =very= few exceptions, that's not the case. A very wise law professor told his 3L class on the last day of classes before graduation, "You may think you know exactly what you want to do. Go for it. But don't blind yourself to the opportunities that may come your way. You never know..." Very true words.

You are quite correct about a number of thins as well. The aviation undergraduate degree =can= have an advantage. The =contacts= you make at the undergraduate level may help with the direction of your legal career. But except perhaps for and undergraduate degree in engineering and a career in patent law, there's not that much of a connection between undergrad major and legal career. "Pre-law" is really a misnomer.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Um, there was that smiley at the end of his comment. It was a joke. (BTW, what was the other baseless staement?)

Besides, I thought there were few "baseless statements" in your earlier post as well, like

I'm not sure why you would think that. As JHines and I both pointed out, the aviation industry has a wide variety of legal needs, most of which have nothing to do with aviation. And lawyer + pilot does not necessarily equal aviation lawyer, which itself doesn't mean much since "aviation law" covers a lot of territory.
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Ahh....... that was exactly what I said; being a pilot certainly is not a predetermination for what area of the law you practice. As you highlighted, most lawyers don't really know what they will be doing in the third year. And to put all your eggs in one basket, as with anything in life, it would be severely limiting your options.

A degree in aviation science is worthless.
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was the first baseless statement.
 
Ophir said:
But I would further contest that an aviation degree would be worthless. That statement has no merit. The fact is that Law Schools accept people with a wide variety of backgrounds nowdays.
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Absolutely right, Ophir. My brother was a poly sci major and he ended up graduating with honors from Georgetown Law.

He also interned for the folks who write the legal columns for AOPA. So I can ask him about what that was like.
 
tonyw said:
Absolutely right, Ophir. My brother was a poly sci major and he ended up graduating with honors from Georgetown Law.
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That's not much of a testament to variety. Unless things changed drastically in the last 30 years, probably more than 80% of the graduates from Georgetown Law (and most other law schools) were Poly Sci majors.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
That's not much of a testament to variety. Unless things changed drastically in the last 30 years, probably more than 80% of the graduates from Georgetown Law (and most other law schools) were Poly Sci majors.
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Point is, there's no such thing as a worthless major and they'll take any degree so long as you've got the intellectual firepower to back it up.

Hell, man, there was a guy who had a masters in physics in his class. That guy was a freaking genius -- it was like he was always two or three steps in front of everyone mentally.
 
tonyw said:
Point is, there's no such thing as a worthless major and they'll take any degree so long as you've got the intellectual firepower to back it up.

Hell, man, there was a guy who had a masters in physics in his class. That guy was a freaking genius -- it was like he was always two or three steps in front of everyone mentally.
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Yup. My undergrad major was Spanish (minor was in theatre). Any undergrad major (with good grades and a good LSAT score) will get you into law school. Once there, your law school's reputation and your own performance is all that really matters -- no one cares about your undergraduate major once you're done with law school (exception -- engineering and chemistry grads can get primo jobs in intellectual property law which generally pay 10-40% higher than any other comparable law job).

Major in what interests you. Unless you want to go into nursing or engineering or some other speciality, your choice of major just really doesn't matter.
 
scoobs said:
There is know way there making 80K in Utah.
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Well seeing as how the woman I live with, aka my girlfriend, says it's so, I am going to say it is so. Somehow I believe her. She works for one of the largest firms in the city.
 
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