Latest Eagle AIP rejected

Kingairer said:
Care to explain what it is exactly yall are disagreeing about?
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He loves throwing around the term trade unionism which I agree with the concept whole heartily, but when I call the actions of others what they are, he gets upset.
 
Kingairer said:
Care to explain what it is exactly yall are disagreeing about?
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We're disagreeing about the nature of the union that we want. Apparently he wants a union that is in the back pocket of the A4A and doesn't give a flying you-know-what about unity and a large section of its membership. I prefer a real trade union that views all of its members as equals.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
We're disagreeing about the nature of the union that we want. Apparently he wants a union that is in the back pocket of the A4A and doesn't give a flying you-know-what about unity and a large section of its membership. I prefer a real trade union that views all of its members as equals.
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You're living in a world that doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist.

Labor has never been about unity. Labor has always been about getting paid. If it takes unity to do that, then labor will have unity when it works. If it takes breaking kneecaps, then labor will break kneecaps when it works. If it takes working with management, then labor will work with management when it works.

Or said more simply, the labor movement isn't about ideology; it's about results. It's ideologically clad fools that ruin the labor movement; those that have neither the time, training or inclination for strategic thought (@MikeD).

In the end, we keep putting these fools in places of authority within our unions, and thus we get the results that we deserve.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
We're disagreeing about the nature of the union that we want. Apparently he wants a union that is in the back pocket of the A4A and doesn't give a flying you-know-what about unity and a large section of its membership. I prefer a real trade union that views all of its members as equals.
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By definition that could only be the likes of SWAPA and APA. On the other hand ALPA is too spread out and tries to protect the interests of both major and regional airlines. It's a conflict because success and growth at the regional level comes at the expense of the major airline. Reigning scope back means regional airlines lose. You can't win.

As for your comment about "get over it" perhaps you should get over it in regards to carrying a master scab list to deny people a jumpseat.
 
Nark said:
This is kind of insulting. Have a quick look at history, or better yet have a gander at the series Generation Kill. The best adaptation to screen of how military actually works.
The NCO's are the backbone of all services, not the officers. I've been both.
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Oh let's not get ahead of ourselves before we even finish (start?) Primary, young WOJ. ;)
 
ATN_Pilot said:
We're disagreeing about the nature of the union that we want. Apparently he wants a union that is in the back pocket of the A4A and doesn't give a flying you-know-what about unity and a large section of its membership. I prefer a real trade union that views all of its members as equals.
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This is why so many people are turned off by your posts.

I'm a member of the same union you are, have volunteered extensively like you, yet, we disagree with a position and I am immediately called out by you with a lie saying I want a union that is controlled by the A4A.

That is far from the truth.
 
jtrain609 said:
You're living in a world that doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist.
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I disagree, but it's your union, so make of it what you will. I'm on my way out, and it seems that people like me are being replaced with the kind of self-serving politicians that you apparently want. So let's see how that goes for you. I'll be watching from afar, thankfully.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Scope going back to mainline means additional pilots needed to do that flying... Presumably hired from a regional, that is a win for everyone (well, all pilots at least).
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You've never shared the cockpit with a senior ASA pilot. A win for them is getting bigger airplanes and more west coast flying, industry and the next generation be damned. They've simply put all their eggs in the regional basket and can't 'afford' the regionals to shrink. They view 9/11 as the best thing to happen to their career interests because it grew their career airline into a 'major.' Hence the reason our TA received a unanimous 'Yay' from our NC followed by a resounding NO from the rest of the pilot group. This also shows why ALPA has no business representing us.

As a senior captain told me recently, and I quote: "I was really disappointed when Delta decided not to give us those 717's they bought. It doesnt make much business sense to me for them to fly them themselves when we could do it so much cheaper."
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I disagree, but it's your union, so make of it what you will. I'm on my way out, and it seems that people like me are being replaced with the kind of self-serving politicians that you apparently want. So let's see how that goes for you. I'll be watching from afar, thankfully.
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When you are lecturing a near 7 year FO like @jtrain609 and talk down to him about self-serving behavior, as if you've not done anything self-serving in your career, it tends to go in one ear and out the other man.
 
mastermags said:
When you are lecturing a near 7 year FO like @jtrain609 and talk down to him about self-serving behavior, as if you've not done anything self-serving in your career, it tends to go in one ear and out the other man.
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... Well. That's hard to argue with.

@jtrain609 is an easy punching bag though. Not just because he unites the black vote or is the best troll in JC... it just feels good and it's good for you!

mastermags said:
You've never shared the cockpit with a senior ASA pilot. A win for them is getting bigger airplanes and more west coast flying, industry and the next generation be damned.

As a senior captain told me recently, and I quote: "I was really disappointed when Delta decided not to give us those 717's they bought. It doesnt make much business sense to me for them to fly them themselves when we could do it so much cheaper."
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God that's so foreign for me to think about but I suppose there's a percentage that do believe that's their future. Regional's all the way baby!
 
jynxyjoe said:
... Well. That's hard to argue with.

@jtrain609 is an easy punching bag though. Not just because he unites the black vote or is the best troll in JC... it just feels good and it's good for you!


God that's so foreign for me to think about but I suppose there's a percentage that do believe that's their future. Regional's all the way baby!
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I should bring that one back.
 
mastermags said:
When you are lecturing a near 7 year FO like @jtrain609 and talk down to him about self-serving behavior, as if you've not done anything self-serving in your career, it tends to go in one ear and out the other man.
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Whatever you say, man. I'm proud of my record of union service, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a single action I took that could be seen as self serving.

But I wasn't "talking down" to the train. I was simply disagreeing with him. I disagree with his entire premise that unity in the labor movement is a fantasy, and I disagree with him that people who believe it is are the best people to lead. But if that's what he believes, then I think he's going to see his theory put to the test. Because there are precious few true believer trade unionists left now. So let's see how it goes. I'm not optimistic.
 
Kingairer said:
Many have talked about getting out of aviation, few have actually done it.
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The number is growing. A few of the guys I knew at Pinnacle have gotten back into their old careers or started entirely new ones. There are also a few examples right here on JC. I'll be out in a few months, and I'll let you know how it works out in about 30 years. ;)
 
mastermags said:
This also shows why ALPA has no business representing us.
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The issue of course is that you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. What you are speaking of has absolutely nothing to do with ALPA but rather the people in a leadership position of the union that is representing you. AAA ALPA by 2001, was being led by a bunch of blithering idiots who screwed up a merger integration by being completely inflexible. The pilot group decided that ALPA was the problem and dumped them, replacing them with the inhouse USAPA... RUN STILL BY THE SAME BLITHERING IDIOTS. And of course, nothing changed.
 
BobDDuck said:
The issue of course is that you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. What you are speaking of has absolutely nothing to do with ALPA but rather the people in a leadership position of the union that is representing you. AAA ALPA by 2001, was being led by a bunch of blithering idiots who screwed up a merger integration by being completely inflexible. The pilot group decided that ALPA was the problem and dumped them, replacing them with the inhouse USAPA... RUN STILL BY THE SAME BLITHERING IDIOTS. And of course, nothing changed.
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ALPA representing regional and mainline pilots is a direct conflict of interest. If ALPA is truly interested in improving the career it would aiming for the complete elimination of the regionals. Obviously this would be stark contrast to what my MEC is aiming for which is keeping the doors open at any cost.

Now I'm not on the bandwagon of decertifying ALPA on the regional level as some are. Whats done is done and I believe ALPA is the best thing I can have at my current gig for protecting me against the FAA and the company.

ATN_Pilot said:
But I wasn't "talking down" to the train. I was simply disagreeing with him. I disagree with his entire premise that unity in the labor movement is a fantasy, and I disagree with him that people who believe it is are the best people to lead. But if that's what he believes, then I think he's going to see his theory put to the test. Because there are precious few true believer trade unionists left now. So let's see how it goes. I'm not optimistic.
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It came off as talking down to me, but im willing to file that under Interwebz misinterpretation. The point Train was making, I think, is that political ideology, which trade unionism often dissolves into is always a dangerous path to tred. The union's goal should be to get results, not to toe the party line. Come to think of it, our government should be of the same mind, yet ideology has basically ruined honest debate and rational decision making.
 
mastermags said:
ALPA representing regional and mainline pilots is a direct conflict of interest. If ALPA is truly interested in improving the career it would aiming for the complete elimination of the regionals. Obviously this would be stark contrast to what my MEC is aiming for which is keeping the doors open at any cost.

Now I'm not on the bandwagon of decertifying ALPA on the regional level as some are. Whats done is done and I believe ALPA is the best thing I can have at my current gig for protecting me against the FAA and the company.



It came off as talking down to me, but im willing to file that under Interwebz misinterpretation. The point Train was making, I think, is that political ideology, which trade unionism often dissolves into is always a dangerous path to tred. The union's goal should be to get results, not to toe the party line. Come to think of it, our government should be of the same mind, yet ideology has basically ruined honest debate and rational decision making.
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Elimination of the regionals starts with elevating pilot work rules and compensation to near-mainline levels. Once the cost disparity is dissolved and the status quo shifted, there's no reason for two senior lists, two management teams, two everything. Everybody goes back to mainline. Superfluous management gets ditched. Everybody happy.
 
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