Kenmore Air down Sucia Island 7/23

DropTank said:
Water there is likely in the 50's, which isn't horrible IF you're trained but can easily be a factor.
I've been in dunk training, am a strong swimmer, and even I have had trouble (seat belt not releasing)
One moment of panic, one lung full of water and you're done.
Better trained people than me have met their doom in a relatively benign water landing.

Add concussion, deep fear about flying, water, death, add herd mentality, and cold shock and things go bad REAL fast.
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Yeah, you can't panic at all. Not even a little bit. Tall order for a bunch of folks with no training, out for a fun ride, and somewhat intoxicated as well. The Navy pools are a fair bit warmer than it is out there in the sound, probably by at least 15-20 deg. It's warm enough that when we're doing the swim stuff geared up before you move over to the dunker, I normally feel hot. That would be some real cold shock out here in the water. I know my plan flying out in our local W area out here has always been to get as close as possible to the beach if I ever had a controlled ejection scenario. Summertime is a bit better, but not really by that much.
 
///AMG said:
Yeah, you can't panic at all. Not even a little bit. Tall order for a bunch of folks with no training, out for a fun ride, and somewhat intoxicated as well. The Navy pools are a fair bit warmer than it is out there in the sound, probably by at least 15-20 deg. It's warm enough that when we're doing the swim stuff geared up before you move over to the dunker, I normally feel hot. That would be some real cold shock out here in the water. I know my plan flying out in our local W area out here has always been to get as close as possible to the beach if I ever had a controlled ejection scenario. Summertime is a bit better, but not really by that much.
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I had the opportunity to do a real basic dunker (frame made from PVC pipe) in the city swimming pool, it was definitely a good thing to experience
 
Roger Roger said:
I had the opportunity to do a real basic dunker (frame made from PVC pipe) in the city swimming pool, it was definitely a good thing to experience
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Yeah, it is valuable training. I hope to never need to use it, but it would definitely give someone a fighting chance. Just the basic principles of 1) let the movement/thrashing/rolling stop before doing anything, and 2) anchor a hand to somewhere known and don't let yourself get into a scenario where you are using both hands to release yourself and lose that anchor point. You can actually hold your breath for quite a lot longer than people think, provided you aren't panicking. Have been kicked in the face multiple times by folks in front of me losing their cool, and have had to just patiently wait for them to get out the door for longer than I would have liked. But still haven't drowned.
 
///AMG said:
Yeah, it is valuable training. I hope to never need to use it, but it would definitely give someone a fighting chance. Just the basic principles of 1) let the movement/thrashing/rolling stop before doing anything, and 2) anchor a hand to somewhere known and don't let yourself get into a scenario where you are using both hands to release yourself and lose that anchor point. You can actually hold your breath for quite a lot longer than people think, provided you aren't panicking. Have been kicked in the face multiple times by folks in front of me losing their cool, and have had to just patiently wait for them to get out the door for longer than I would have liked. But still haven't drowned.
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I got the dunk, and pop a raft then climb in.
You'd be surprised how much trouble some of the meat heads have climbing into the raft.

I enjoy water to 50f, way too cold for most.

Been in MUCH colder. The 5 minute rule is no joke.
 
DropTank said:
I got the dunk, and pop a raft then climb in.
You'd be surprised how much trouble some of the meat heads have climbing into the raft.

I enjoy water to 50f, way too cold for most.

Been in MUCH colder. The 5 minute rule is no joke.
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For the ejection seat version of said training, you leave the dunker, and immediately proceed (after your last dunker ride) to manual inflation of the collar LPU. So the whole prone floating thing, catch your breath, unzip the thing and find the stupid breather hoses which are way farther up than they seem. Then dunk under, blow, repeat a bunch of times. We do practice getting into the personal raft that comes from the seat pan at some point towards the end, which is as you describe, a little awkward. Mainly because you're in all your gear and boots, and your hands aren't very dexterous in gloves, plus the helmet and all the crap situated at the top of your torso makes it awkward.

I wouldn't say that 50f water is my comfort zone, but having grown up here, I'm used to swimming in it in the ocean and in the mountain lakes enough that it isn't a huge shock. At least not as much of a shock as it would be for someone used to say the gulf coast, or the Atlantic in the summer.
 
///AMG said:
Yeah, it is valuable training. I hope to never need to use it, but it would definitely give someone a fighting chance. Just the basic principles of 1) let the movement/thrashing/rolling stop before doing anything, and 2) anchor a hand to somewhere known and don't let yourself get into a scenario where you are using both hands to release yourself and lose that anchor point. You can actually hold your breath for quite a lot longer than people think, provided you aren't panicking. Have been kicked in the face multiple times by folks in front of me losing their cool, and have had to just patiently wait for them to get out the door for longer than I would have liked. But still haven't drowned.
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Ours is a moderate wave pool for swells, with the lights off, water raining down on top of you when you surface, and the lights off with strobes for lightning effect. if you deploy your HEED bottle correctly, that should at least alleviate possible panic and give you a quick second to settle down and not rush as the violent motion ceases. However, there’s no time to waste, as helos sink much faster than planes, in addition to rolling over in a ditching if there are no HEF systems installed. Getting to the surface is great, but the fun only starts from there, trying to find the uninflated raft that’s a few swells over, finding any other surviving crew by their strobe lights…which are only there to help sharks find you easier. Then working your way over to the hovering helo for both assisted and unassisted hoist hookups for rescue. Really kicks the crap out of you physically.
 
As a contrast, I worked at a cheap azzed major cargo airline. Our overwater quals every year was to step into an inflated raft and step out. This was done inside the training center. On a concrete floor. The nearest water was the drinking fountain. I've heard pax airlines do training in an actual swimming pool. Must be a cargo cutout for overwater training as well as part 117.
 
DE727UPS said:
As a contrast, I worked at a cheap azzed major cargo airline. Our overwater quals every year was to step into an inflated raft and step out. This was done inside the training center. On a concrete floor. The nearest water was the drinking fountain. I've heard pax airlines do training in an actual swimming pool. Must be a cargo cutout for overwater training as well as part 117.
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Only one airline I have worked for did the raft training in the pool, and that was a small regional airline. Everywhere else did it the same way as your old shop.
 
Does part 125 or 91 have any dunker training requirements? Unsure how this flight was operated.

Ive found wearing lifevests for single engine seaplane (training) odd but ok. Im pretty sure multiengine seaplane has no such need.

I guess for single engine its mainly the engine out scenario. I figure these planes float, except when they dont...
 
When i started at AA in 2018 they had a pool with the giant raft. We would get 4-5 people at a time into the water and circle up. Then we would climb into the raft with all the rest the folks. They would show us a few things and we would put the canopy up and take it down. I don't know if they still do that or not.

I have always wanted to do the dunk tank training and open water survival training. Not sure if there are many places that offer that to civilian operators.
 
ASpilot2be said:
Only one airline I have worked for did the raft training in the pool, and that was a small regional airline. Everywhere else did it the same way as your old shop.
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My regional did a pool day as well. At my current job, we get pool day and upset recovery training in L39's and a Saberliner! Fun stuff and a reminder of what being inverted feels like.
 
Cessnaflyer said:
My regional did a pool day as well. At my current job, we get pool day and upset recovery training in L39's and a Saberliner! Fun stuff and a reminder of what being inverted feels like.
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I'm sure it became a liability for people that can't swim. That probably why no one really does it.
 
if you really want some cool training, centrifuge training can’t be beat. Have done that one twice. interesting and sucks, all at the same time.
 
DeltaAlphaNovember said:
When i started at AA in 2018 they had a pool with the giant raft. We would get 4-5 people at a time into the water and circle up. Then we would climb into the raft with all the rest the folks. They would show us a few things and we would put the canopy up and take it down. I don't know if they still do that or not.

I have always wanted to do the dunk tank training and open water survival training. Not sure if there are many places that offer that to civilian operators.
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When I went through initial out here, we still did a pool day. Not sure when they stopped, but it's not a thing anymore.

We did our's towards the very end of our training footprint and for the week leading up to it my Sim partner (who had just gone through a bad breakup) was talking about how awesome it was going to be. The class before us had done a combined pool day with the new hire FA class going through and that's all he could talk about.

Fast forward to pool day, and it's just the three of us from my class huddling together in a pool in the pouring rain, glaring at my poor sim partner.
 
I've never worked as a flight mechanic but a buddy of mine has/does for a large 91 operator. Before he was married he was very fond of the recurrent water training he'd have to do. His classes would be mostly cabin/flight attendants. I once asked him if everyone had to wear their uniforms when they jumped into the heated pool, his answer was "No, uniforms are more expensive than board shorts or bikinis.".
 
knot4u said:
I've never worked as a flight mechanic but a buddy of mine has/does for a large 91 operator. Before he was married he was very fond of the recurrent water training he'd have to do. His classes would be mostly cabin/flight attendants. I once asked him if everyone had to wear their uniforms when they jumped into the heated pool, his answer was "No, uniforms are more expensive than board shorts or bikinis.".
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We did ours in uniform so we could feel what it would be like. Definitely a good workout trying to stay afloat.
 
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