Kelley Interpretation Letter - 121.436

What I am saying is that I believe that they make it clear below:

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) require an ATP certificate, are multicrew operations,

and generally use turbine aircraft and therefore are the most applicable to part 121 operations.

I think they make it clear when they say that they ARE MULTICREW OPS
135.243(a)(1) -
(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter, unless that person holds an airline transport pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings and, if required, an appropriate type rating for that airplane.

91.1053(a)(2)(i)
(a) No program manager or owner may use any person, nor may any person serve, as a pilot in command or second in command of a program aircraft, or as a flight attendant on a program aircraft, in program operations under this subpart unless that person has met the applicable requirements of part 61 of this chapter and has the following experience and ratings:
2) For multi-engine turbine-powered fixed-wing and powered-lift aircraft, the following FAA certification and ratings requirements:

(i) Pilot in command—Airline transport pilot and applicable type ratings.



I must be missing the part where either of those regulations mentions anything about 2 pilots.
Lets see turbojet - requires 2 crew? Maybe. Depends on the jet, what opspecs, what's installed and what's working.
10 seats or more - nope
multiengine commuter operation - nope
 
They are denying everything, lol.

Of interest in the gulf & Caribbean cargo -
" Operations under § 91.1053(a)(2)(i) or § 135.243(a)(1) require an ATP certificate, are multicrew operations... " This isn't necessarily true. It can be, but I do wonder where they have found either of those regs to require a crew of 2 or more. I posted them above.

They are denying petitions for exemption from the rules based on the criteria that the operation requires an ATP and crewmembers, but that is not what the outcome of the actual reg requires, so that is interesting.

I LOOOOOLed at this -
"A significant portion of Gulf & Caribbean’s supporting information centers on its ability to attract and retain pilots for its operations. The FAA finds that this is essentially a private interest argument and personal monetary benefit is not public interest. "

@raysalmon did you hear anything back?
 
Spoke to the FAA last week and they estimated about another month or so. Paperwork only just got to the decision maker's desk last week just before I called.
 
image.jpg

Here is the latest from the FAA, they have addressed the issue.
 
It's still asinine. I can fly a Beech 1900 single pilot carrying 9 passengers in scheduled operations tomorrow, I can also do charters single pilot with a 1900 tomorrow with all 19 people. I cannot, however, fly two pilot crew in a 1900 under 121 tomorrow.
Right? I watch this thread to see if the FAA addresses this. I can fly the Brasilia/Metro as PIC at Ameriflight. Can't go direct to PIC in those planes at KeyLime or Great Lakes. I would LOVE an answer as to why. It doesn't even have to be a rational answer! :)

Secondly, Skywest Brasilia captains can/are becoming CRJ captains. So why can't I go direct left seat in a CRJ either?

91/121/135 only differ on the maintenance/ops side. Not one single thing is different for the pilots duties. Hell, 135 and 121 use almost all of the same opspecs anyways...
 
Right? I watch this thread to see if the FAA addresses this. I can fly the Brasilia/Metro as PIC at Ameriflight. Can't go direct to PIC in those planes at KeyLime or Great Lakes. I would LOVE an answer as to why. It doesn't even have to be a rational answer! :)

Secondly, Skywest Brasilia captains can/are becoming CRJ captains. So why can't I go direct left seat in a CRJ either?

91/121/135 only differ on the maintenance/ops side. Not one single thing is different for the pilots duties. Hell, 135 and 121 use almost all of the same opspecs anyways...

What's really wild is that a Great Lakes FO with 1000hrs at Lakes could go direct entry captain in a CRJ, but you couldn't go fly a Brasilia at Lakes as a DE captain...wtf over?
 
What's really wild is that a Great Lakes FO with 1000hrs at Lakes could go direct entry captain in a CRJ, but you couldn't go fly a Brasilia at Lakes as a DE captain...wtf over?
Yeah, I don't care that much. It just seems odd. I'm sure there's plenty of shady 135s and that might be the reason, but I've never heard anyone I know that left Ameriflight say that switching to 121 was anything but a flawless and easy trasition. Mainline and FFD carriers.

My predecessor is at Frontier. Metro/Brasilia to Airbus. Zero issues and no adjustment required at all. SIC obviously, but still
 
Man this is really interesting information that will definitely influence my decision making while trying to map out my career. This forum really is an amazing wealth of information.
 
What's really wild is that a Great Lakes FO with 1000hrs at Lakes could go direct entry captain in a CRJ, but you couldn't go fly a Brasilia at Lakes as a DE captain...wtf over?

What's even more asinine is that doing it under 135, you are most likely more responsible for more work then you are doing it 121, in the same airplane, which makes zero sense. I can see it a little bit because of the inconsistency between 135 operators. But, WTF?!?
 
So...... if I am understanding this correctly; Any time spent at a 135 beyond the bare minimum needed to go Part 121 isn't doing anything to enhance a career, rather just means one is spending more time in the left seat at a Part 135 operator?
 
So...... if I am understanding this correctly; Any time spent at a 135 beyond the bare minimum needed to go Part 121 isn't doing anything to enhance a career, rather just means one is spending more time in the left seat at a Part 135 operator?
No. Any turbojet 135 time counts, also more than 10 pax seats/a commuter operation. And your career goals would have to include directly to the left seat of a 121 airline for it to matter for most people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GX
No. Any turbojet 135 time counts, also more than 10 pax seats/a commuter operation. And your career goals would have to include directly to the left seat of a 121 airline for it to matter for most people.

Not necessarily. This could affect many people that are former 135 that get hired at 121 operators with quick upgrade, but get bypassed because there 135 PIC doesn't count. Turning a potential upgrade in 6 months in to several years getting 1000 SIC fo upgrade. Makes no sense to me, but I'm just a former freight dog so wha do I know.
 
Not necessarily. This could affect many people that are former 135 that get hired at 121 operators with quick upgrade, but get bypassed because there 135 PIC doesn't count. Turning a potential upgrade in 6 months in to several years getting 1000 SIC fo upgrade. Makes no sense to me, but I'm just a former freight dog so wha do I know.
Well maybe don't go to some low paying regional if you have that much flight experience. That would be my suggestion.
Yes, it's dumb, but we have to play within the rules.
 
Hello could any one help with this personal scenario?.
According to the requirements to serve as PIC under the 121.436, (a), 3.
It is stated to have 1000 hrs as sic under 121, however there are other options that I could use towards the requirements.

One of them is the pilot in command under 91.1053 (a).(2).(1). As an option towards the 1000 requirement, which refers to crew member experience in general.

Since I have that experience with 737 sic, 145 and 190 pic flight times, at part 91 foreign FAA certified operators according to the opspec. I'm
Just trying to get a clear answer about this, and to confirm, since I'm getting into a regional with the option to upgrade soon.

Thanks for your advise
 
As answered several times on APC: you can only count that time towards 121.436 if it was conducted under Part 91 subpart K - fractional ownership programs. Other types of Part 91 time do not count.
 
Back
Top