Kelley Interpretation Letter - 121.436

[ppragman]

The Feds won't unless you give them a reason to.

The company on the other had will. We have had more than one person show up to upgrade and then be sent home because they don't meet the requirements. One of the things that they are collecting data on now is how much previous 121/135 PIC, etc. each new hire has.

The FSDO might not check every one, but the company sure does.

Well 135 PIC doesn't necessarily comply with the reg. I have about 5,000hrs 135 PIC time, none of it complies with the captain upgrade requirements of 121.

 

[z987k]

The Feds won't unless you give them a reason to.

The company on the other had will. We have had more than one person show up to upgrade and then be sent home because they don't meet the requirements. One of the things that they are collecting data on now is how much previous 121/135 PIC, etc. each new hire has.

The FSDO might not check every one, but the company sure does. From a liability standpoint if something were to happen and also from a training schedule standpoint (they don't have the luxury to have a seat in an upgrade class vacant) it is in the company's best interest to make sure each applicant is qualified.

If the feds don't care and the company either doesn't care or does not understand the reg - It's not 135 PIC time, or turbine PIC, then I imagine it will go unnoticed.

 

[Tommay85]

Again, what happens to the guy that upgraded sooner than they "should have" and finds themselves sitting in front of an interview panel at Delta?

Or during after an audit from "THAT guy" from the FAA?

 

[Roger11]

I don't think that Cape Air 402 time would count, the FAA makes it pretty clear in their final rule. Here is an excerpt:

For these same reasons the FAA has determined that flight time acquired as a PIC in operations

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i),and §135.243(a)(1) and flight time acquired as an SIC in part 121

operations should count towards the 1,000 hour air carrier experience requirement. Operations

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) require an ATP certificate, are multicrew operations,

and generally use turbine aircraft and therefore are the most applicable to part 121 operations.

 

[ppragman]

I don't think that Cape Air 402 time would count, the FAA makes it pretty clear in their final rule. Here is an excerpt:

For these same reasons the FAA has determined that flight time acquired as a PIC in operations

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i),and §135.243(a)(1) and flight time acquired as an SIC in part 121

operations should count towards the 1,000 hour air carrier experience requirement. Operations

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) require an ATP certificate, are multicrew operations,

and generally use turbine aircraft and therefore are the most applicable to part 121 operations.

Multi-engine commuter requires an ATP.

 

[Roger11]

Are Cape Air 402's a Multicrew operation, are they able to fly single pilot? It sounds pretty clear clear to me that the INTENT of the FAA to let a very small part of 91 and 135 to count is that those parts were Pseudo 121 like operations, I think you could make an argument that Single Pilot was not part of that Intent. Just my opinion.

 

[z987k]

Are Cape Air 402's a Multicrew operation, are they able to fly single pilot? It sounds pretty clear clear to me that the INTENT of the FAA to let a very small part of 91 and 135 to count is that those parts were Pseudo 121 like operations, I think you could make an argument that Single Pilot was not part of that Intent. Just my opinion.

It doesn't matter too much what the intent was when the way they wrote it specifically includes part 135 commuter operations. Cape air PICs are single pilot qualified.
If by your logic an ATP and a 2 man crew makes it close to 121, then EOD should count more than commuter ops in 402s. EOD is the only thing close to as restrictive in crew members as 121.
In fact one would assume, at least from reading the NPRM that the intent was to make sure people going into the left seat of 121 operations are more qualified. They missed that mark by a couple miles with the way it is written.

 

[Tommay85]

I can't go direct captain on the Brasilia with Skywest(when they had them and if they were to hire for that) or Great Lakes, nor can I go direct to a captain position on the Metro at Key Lime. Supposedly Mesa is hiring street captains. I don't qualify apparently. The rule and the interpretation are WAY off the mark.

 

[ppragman]

Are Cape Air 402's a Multicrew operation, are they able to fly single pilot? It sounds pretty clear clear to me that the INTENT of the FAA to let a very small part of 91 and 135 to count is that those parts were Pseudo 121 like operations, I think you could make an argument that Single Pilot was not part of that Intent. Just my opinion.

It doesn't matter if they're multi-crew, Cape Air is a commuter operation - which meets the requirements. I'm single pilot typed in the 1900 and couldn't direct entry captain at Lakes if I wanted to, but theoretically, a guy with only 402 time could direct entry captain on a CRJ because of the way the reg is written.

 

[Roger11]

What I am saying is that I believe that they make it clear below:

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) require an ATP certificate, are multicrew operations,

and generally use turbine aircraft and therefore are the most applicable to part 121 operations.

I think they make it clear when they say that they ARE MULTICREW OPS

 

[ppragman]

What I am saying is that I believe that they make it clear below:

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) require an ATP certificate, are multicrew operations,

and generally use turbine aircraft and therefore are the most applicable to part 121 operations.

I think they make it clear when they say that they ARE MULTICREW OPS

Cape Air operates under 135.243(a)(1), because Cape Air is a scheduled multi-engine commuter. There are Cape Air flights with two crew members, but Cape Air does operate many (most?) flights without an SIC. Grant Aviation in Alaska has Navajos that are operated under these rules, they have no, that is zero, zilch, nada, nope, none SICs. Those guys could go fly a Navajo single pilot on these scheduled flights (a man's airplane I might add) for 1000hrs then go into the left seat of a CRJ. A guy flying a Beech 1900 single pilot for 1000hrs flying boxes on scheduled flights in the middle of the night could not go to Great Lakes to be PIC in the same airplane he was just flying.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

My guess is that this is to prevent Cape Air PIC's from jumping into the left seat of a CRJ or ERJ as a street captain. If that's the case, then I agree with the FAA on this.

Yeah, interesting interpretation... But, if that is the case, 121.436 (a)(3) should read something to the effect of... "No Vineyard, Great Mistakes, or Keg Slime pilots shall be hired as real 121 PICs without..." 'Cause everyone knows that hand flying around in heavy Wx in minimally maintained twin pistons while actually taking care of individual Pax is child's play compared to turning on an A/P and opening a newspaper.
Also strikes me as just a tad bizarre that a pilot with 5000+ hrs of 135/91 Lear PIC/Lear60 PIC/Hawker PIC/CitationX PIC/G150 PIC/Encore SPPIC, etc., etc. time is not qualified to fly an A/P driven, "Great Unwashed Carrier".
Thanks, @mojo6911. I was not aware of this zaniness.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

What I am saying is that I believe that they make it clear below:

under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) require an ATP certificate, are multicrew operations,

and generally use turbine aircraft and therefore are the most applicable to part 121 operations.

I think they make it clear when they say that they ARE MULTICREW OPS

Absolutely. It takes at least 1000 hrs of practice responding to "Flaps Up, After Take Off Checklist" to get the response smooth, crisp, and juuuust right.

 

[jtrain609]

Yeah, interesting interpretation... But, if that is the case, 121.436 (a)(3) should read something to the effect of... "No Vineyard, Great Mistakes, or Keg Slime pilots shall be hired as real 121 PICs without..." 'Cause everyone knows that hand flying around in heavy Wx in minimally maintained twin pistons while actually taking care of individual Pax is child's play compared to turning on an A/P and opening a newspaper.
Also strikes me as just a tad bizarre that a pilot with 5000+ hrs of 135/91 Lear PIC/Lear60 PIC/Hawker PIC/CitationX PIC/G150 PIC/Encore SPPIC, etc., etc. time is not qualified to fly an A/P driven, "Great Unwashed Carrier".
Thanks, @mojo6911. I was not aware of this zaniness.

What do you call a bunch of pilots complaining about how they're qualified to do operations they've never had any exposure to?

The internet.

 

[Dugie8]

What do you call a bunch of pilots complaining about how they're qualified to do operations they've never had any exposure to? The internet.

121 pilots....

 

[Tommay85]

I just have beef with not being able to switch from 135 to 121 in type, if the opportunity presented itself. I'm not seeing any difference, from the pilots perspective, between 91/135/121. A Metro/1900/Brasilia is still a Metro/1900/Brasilia.

Lets get even more speculative. What difference does it make going from a t-prop to a jet in 121 vs 135 t-prop to 121 jet. Neither has prior jet time. If I'm correctly understanding how current captains move into the jets at Skywest of course...

 

[ppragman]

What do you call a bunch of pilots complaining about how they're qualified to do operations they've never had any exposure to?

The internet.

So....you don't think it's absurd that a guy flying a 402 at Cape Air could be a DE captain at a regional place, but a guy who flew a Metro/1900 single pilot couldn't (no offense to guys at the Cape)? Or a guy who flew a Brasilia! A plane that requires two people, couldn't go fly the same airplane at Great Lakes in the left seat? I think it's silly that a guy with 2400hrs that was hired at Cape Air with 1500 could go to fly a Brasilia and upgrade in a month with 100hrs in type, but a guy with 5000hrs and 2400hrs of time in the left seat of the same airplane from Ameriflight would have to wait 1,000hrs to upgrade? That's illogical and is simply a bad regulation.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

What do you call a bunch of pilots complaining about how they're qualified to do operations they've never had any exposure to?

The internet.

Perhaps correct. However, I'm certain I'm not qualified to fly around in minimally-maintained twin pistons in heavy Wx... if for no other reason than I'm too timid.

 

[ppragman]

I just have beef with not being able to switch from 135 to 121 in type, if the opportunity presented itself. I'm not seeing any difference, from the pilots perspective, between 91/135/121. A Metro/Brasilia is still a Metro/Brasilia.

Exactly.

 

[pilotmec]

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2014/durden - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf