Keeping track

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It is a gimmick. You don't need it, and it's something that very few others do.

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This is the reason I posted this at the 1st place, so maybe more people will start doing it.
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Flight instruction is not like retail sales for many reasons, a couple of which are as follows: you don't need to run "sales" to be successful at flight instructing, and retail stores don't give things away for free all the time.

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Neither do I. I do not run sales, nor do I "give things away for free all the time". One BFR over 100 hours of flight, is only 1%. Does not qualify as "sales"...
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The nature of the CFI job gives things away for free, you can hardly avoid it. Someone calls me on the phone for advice, I'm not going to charge for that, though I'd be justified for doing so (see lawyers, etc.). Someone at the airport has a random question that ends up taking 30 minutes to answer, I'm not going to charge, though again I'd be justified in doing so. I spent 30 minutes helping someone out tonight and I wasn't even supposed to be at the airport (no charge). However, if it's scheduled, I charge it. "hi to bye" as someone said it, and actually I start the clock when the lesson was scheduled to start, whether the student is on time or not. I'm up front about it and no one has complained, or even hinted about being disgruntled.

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Just like every one else here...
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Just realize that you are a professional, you deserve to be compensated for your time and effort, and then charge accordingly. People understand.

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I am a professional, I deserve to be compensated for my time, and yes I charge accordingly. Giving out a free BFR (the 1 hour part) is not going to put every other CFI out of buisiness, plus it is good customer care. And if you compared 2 exact same products, (laptop) from different merchants (Best Buy, Office Depot/Max,...) the computer is the same, what makes you choose Best Buy? The free shipping, or whatever incentive they have. This is simple.
 
Well what I really meant was that retail stores don't give away a significant percentage of their stuff for free. Their free shipping, free sample, etc. stuff is insignificant to their cash flow. I haven't run any numbers for myself, but even if it is only an hour a day that I do for free (random consultations and the like), that's a HUGE percentage of my time.

Also, with half those deals the store isn't losing anything. Example, with Comcast, Comcast is paying the store to do that.

Besides, relatively, there is no customer service at retail stores. They have to give sales and things to keep people coming back. You have another option. You can be the best CFI around and they'll come back to you for that one fact alone.

I might start giving students deals like that when I can afford to. I don't spend money on anything beyond rent, food (nothing special in the food department), insurance, gas, and other necessary things. I rarely have any left over. When I start having a cash flow that allows me to live, then I may start giving deals. That won't happen until CFIs realize that they can charge what they are worth.

Aviation as a whole is shooting itself in the face. Shop rate to get a car worked on? $60/hr or more. For an AIRPLANE? People scream about $45/hr! WTF!

PLUMBERS make more than CFIs for cryin' out loud. Why is this so? Because of a few mindsets of CFIs. A) I'm only a lowly CFI, I must charge as little as possible because I'm not worth anything. B) I'm only in it to build flight time, I don't care about instructing, so I shouldn't charge.

Type A needs to be educated and have some self respect built up. Type B needs to be kicked in the nuts and thrown out on the street, they don't deserve to be a CFI.

No, I'm not in it for the money, but it sure would be nice to not wonder if I'll be able to eat for the whole month.

Crap, if I were in any other job where I'm nearly killed as often as I am now, I'd be pulling down fat bank, or at least having everything paid for as in the military.
 
I wasn't saying do 1hr a day for charity!! maybe 1 hour every 2 or 3 months. When a student spends 50 hours times $45= $2250, (make him feel good about coming back for any future ratings or else), give him $45 toward his BFR in 2 years when he is looking for someone.
We are not talking about how much a plumber makes, or anybody else. But now that you mention it, plumbers have the same problems than we do: maybe someone is offering a free nut replacement for his faithfull customers. And that is good customer service.
In your 2 scenarii, the CFI has no intention of making money... If you know someone who is not interested in earning cash (whether he feels he doesn't deserve it, or just doesn't want to charge), let me know, I will hire him!! I'll make money off of him, won't give him a dime (maybe coffee in the morning before his 12 hrs day), put all the cash in my pocket and stay home watch Seinfeld!!
And if you believe this someone exists, I have a great red bridge I would like to sell you!!!
 
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And if you believe this someone exists, I have a great red bridge I would like to sell you!!!

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They're all over the place. I'll introduce you to some if you like. Same reason airline pilots hate PFTers as well as companies that do PFT.

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One BFR over 100 hours of flight, is only 1%.

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Your 1% loss from that free BFR is huge. You think a retail store loses 1% from it's incentives? Hardly. You probably can't even measure it in percentages.

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This is the reason I posted this at the 1st place, so maybe more people will start doing it.

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Why should more people start doing it? I barely make enough to survive, I don't NEED to offer incentives, so why should I do it? You want to force me to do that by offering it yourself when you don't NEED to either. I'll take a poll at the airport on how much of a difference incentives will make. I'll bet it won't have any statistical significance.

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And if you compared 2 exact same products, (laptop) from different merchants (Best Buy, Office Depot/Max,...) the computer is the same, what makes you choose Best Buy? The free shipping, or whatever incentive they have. This is simple.

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Why is that so? Because the retail stores have no customer service. In other areas, this is not the case. If you really need to compare flight instructing to some other business model, you should compare it to buying from the source rather than a middle man such as a retail store. Consider Jepp. versus NOAA. Neither offer incentives, Jepp. is much more widely used. QUALITY, not incentives got them the business. Jepp. is at least 10 times more expensive, but people are willing to pay for the known quality. You should spend your time and effort on increasing the quality of instruction you give rather than trying to dream up cost cuts that people can't afford to give.

Assume for a moment a 2 hour BFR (1 hour ground, 1 hour flight). Assume secondly that you pocket $20/hr (more than most CFIs make). That's $40. When you only make $1000/month, that $40 starts to make a difference. That is 4%. Now take into account that most BFRs are longer than 2 hours. That percentage starts to go up. Then there's the person who hasn't flown since he/she got the certificate, takes them 5 hours in the air and 3 on the ground, ouch, you just lost $160. Oh no, the luck hit the fan and you have 5 BFRs this month, all have to be free. We'll average it to 3 hours per BFR, that's $300 you just lost. Get the picture? The average CFI can not afford that with the pay as it is right now.

Now here comes the guy with one of your coupons, and you tell him "oh I got hired by an airline, my CFI lapsed, sorry". Lawsuit for false advertising time. Yeah it sounds farfetched, but remember, people have sued for coffee being hot and won.

"Oh hi, I'm on the other side of the country now, sorry I can't do your BFR for you." Better hope the guy you just screwed isn't willing to find a lawyer.

If we got paid what we were worth, then hell yeah, I'd be all over the incentives, but one thing at a time. We need to get paid more so we can live before we go offering free stuff.

Remember, many CFIs qualify for food stamps. Now you really think that the price of a BFR means nothing to someone who qualifies for food stamps?
 
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Well what I really meant was that retail stores don't give away a significant percentage of their stuff for free. Their free shipping, free sample, etc. stuff is insignificant to their cash flow.


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As insignificant as the hour of flight and hour of ground that I might give to a former student that got his whole PPL with me - and even then, that only 1 in 5 pilots would even take me up on?

I'd venture to say that the retail store is giving more away for free than I am with their shipping!!!

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I haven't run any numbers for myself, but even if it is only an hour a day that I do for free (random consultations and the like), that's a HUGE percentage of my time.


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We're not talking about giving an hour of free flight instruction a day - we're talking about the occasional free BFR to a student, and only when they meet the requirements of the offer. Certainly not an hour per day. Maybe an hour every six months. Like I said in my first post, it's not the issue of "instructing for free. . .".

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Also, with half those deals the store isn't losing anything. Example, with Comcast, Comcast is paying the store to do that.


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What about the other half??

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Besides, relatively, there is no customer service at retail store. They have to give sales and things to keep people coming back.


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No they don't - alot of store have great customer service! Just as car mechanics and hair salons!! I read another a today - "Get new tires or a tune-up, and we'll inspect your car's AC system for free"!!!! Wow...they're giving away about $35 worth of maintenance!! Now, if they do quality work, they shouldn't have to give anything away for free, right?

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You have another option. You can be the best CFI around and they'll come back to you for that one fact alone.


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What if I'm the best CFI around, AND I give a free BFR if you do all of your training with me and you qualify? Does that mean I'm still gonna get kicked in the particular parts and swatted with chairs when alot of students come to me? If so, it's not because I'm giving that occasional free BFR, it's because all of the angry CFI's are angry because they couldn't come up with as good an idea.

Which begs another question - if anybody with good sense will stay clear of flight instruction gimmicks and go to the best flight instruction no matter what the price, why are you guys so worried about this? They'll obviously ignore the gimmicks, right?
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I might start giving students deals like that when I can afford to. I don't spend money on anything beyond rent, food (nothing special in the food department), insurance, gas, and other necessary things.


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Well, that's one place we differ....
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. Gotta have my cable internet
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I rarely have any left over. When I start having a cash flow that allows me to live, then I may start giving deals.


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So there it is....'nuff said!

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No, I'm not in it for the money, but it sure would be nice to not wonder if I'll be able to eat for the whole month.


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I stand by my last statement....

So, what about aviation camps, and EAA gatherings with "free flights to the public"??

Would you volunteer your services for those events? Surely not . . . Those bastards can pay like everybody else, right??
 
there is so much quoting going on here, I dont know how to add anything more through cut and paste. But,

1) You should not casually compare this topic to say, selling computers at a retail store. Nowadays, computers are a commodity. Its kinda like toasters. When toasters were invented, people chose their toaster based on their features. Now.. toasters.. who cares, we buy the cheapest one at Target and they all work the same. Computers are heading this way, gasoline has always been this way. Is flight instruction also??? YOU as a CFI must decide! Anyone confused by the above... a "COMMODITY" is something that is so plentifully supplied that it is chosen on price alone. I ask again... CFI's... you wanna be THIS?

2) A lot of us are pointing out extreme situations... free flight training up against charging a student for answering a question over the phone. We all know that 99% of our profession lies somewhere in between.

3) anyone who has ever worked in most any industry ought to know that once some thing has been at once undervalued (service, pizza, widget), it is really hard to charge its true value later on. I know.. 'aviation is different'. Well, of course it is... isnt EVERY industry. blah blah blah (those with careers before aviation will understand this).

4) On the internet and elsewhere, there is vehement and vitriol about topics like PFT, etc.. and the classic cocktail party topic of why pilots should be paid more.. etc.. etc... why undervalue your HARD EARNED services at the earliest stage of your aviation career?
 
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why undervalue your HARD EARNED services at the earliest stage of your aviation career?

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Who's service is being undervalued? I'm not saying that we should charge less than the guy across the street! I'm not saying that we should offer less for our service than the guy across the street!

All I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with a little bit of clever marketing to keep potential customers from going across the street!!!

Let's face it...most people are never going to use that BFR!! But it's enough to draw them into the door!!

Remember this??

"Learn to fly! Get started for only $25!!!!"

Come on, since that intro flight, I haven't had a flight that costed me less than $60 (Hey, I got my private back in the $38/hour 152 days...
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). But it draws you in!!!! That's marketing and advertising!
 
Alrighty, I'm tired of copying and quoting so I'm just going to reply.

I'm going to stop trying to counter arguements that involve anything having to do with retail sales and products. There is no comparison. CFIs provide a service not a product. Even if you do mix the two together, a CFI is the "factory source" and not the "retail store", so there is still no comparison.

Now, if you're the best CFI in the area, and you have all the students, why then provide the originally stated BFR incentive? Because you feel you should give something back? But most won't even use it, so that's not the reason for it. It is solely an attempt to garner more students. It won't get any more students, so it is mearly wasted effort that could have been invested in improving your instruction quality.

Before countering the above statement, remember that flight instruction is not the same as retail sales, it does not have the same relationships, and go take a poll of pilots. See what the effect might be.

Oh, and I'm still in the 152 for $33/hr days. I made a flight yesterday that cost me only $6.60!
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It is solely an attempt to garner more students.

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Oh, I never denied that! No different from an ad in the paper, or flyers on the bulletin board at work!!!

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Oh, and I'm still in the 152 for $33/hr days. I made a flight yesterday that cost me only $6.60!
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Oregon, here I come!!!!!
 
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Why should more people start doing it? I barely make enough to survive, I don't NEED to offer incentives, so why should I do it? You want to force me to do that by offering it yourself when you don't NEED to either.
Assume for a moment a 2 hour BFR (1 hour ground, 1 hour flight). Assume secondly that you pocket $20/hr (more than most CFIs make). That's $40. When you only make $1000/month, that $40 starts to make a difference. That is 4%. Now take into account that most BFRs are longer than 2 hours. That percentage starts to go up. Then there's the person who hasn't flown since he/she got the certificate, takes them 5 hours in the air and 3 on the ground, ouch, you just lost $160. Oh no, the luck hit the fan and you have 5 BFRs this month, all have to be free. We'll average it to 3 hours per BFR, that's $300 you just lost. Get the picture? The average CFI can not afford that with the pay as it is right now.

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Like I said before, you don't have to do the entire BFR for free, just give 1 hour of ground and flight for free, the rest is the student's responsability.
If you are hurting for students, maybe it is something you might want to consider as well, it probably will get you more students, and you will be able to afford that internet cable too!
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Point me to where I said I was hurting for students.

It wouldn't get me any more students anyway, because most are smart enough to realize that I probably won't be available for them to take advantage of the BFR two years from now.

That and I get most of mine from word of mouth and repuatation anyway. When people make their decision on reputation, price is not much of a factor. Sure it plays some part, but 2 hours of free instruction means a lot less to them than it does to me.
 
Ok, I understand your point of being able to offer the free BFR in 2 years from now... They won't find a lawyer for that either!!

All I am trying to say, is that by offering something to your students, you might attract more buisiness, you obviously have a good reputation as a CFI, but think about the potential students who would like to have you as an instructor, but can't really afford it, when they hear that you are having a sale , that might be the determining factor for them to choose you over the guy accross the street, don't you think? You are giving up 2 hours of your time, and gaining maybe 1 extra student (40 hours). You have to give to be able to make.

Like I said before, when 2 products (or services as you like to call them) are identical, you will choose the one that offers you something that the other one doesn't.

My dentist gives a toothbrush when I need his services, it isn't much but it is more than what my old dentist gave me (besides the bill, nothing).
 
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They won't find a lawyer for that either!!

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Remember that woman who sued and won for McDonalds having hot coffee? Yeah.

If someone can't afford me without a free BFR, they won't be able to afford me WITH a free BFR either, and I think most people realize that.

Also, you'll never find two identical CFIs, except, perhaps, at the "cookie cutter" schools, in which case they don't set their rates anyway. There will always be ways aside from price for the student to make their decision.
 
Remember that guy who sued Mc D (more recently) for being overweight? Didn't go very far, did he? Plus, how much money is your student going to spend on a lawyer, to get $40 from you?? Try to talk a lawyer into suing someone for $40; just talking to him (the lawyer) will cost you more than that!!

I don't think we are going to come an understanding... I try to take care of my students, that includes giving them a cup of coffee in the morning, sometines I show up with donuts... Guess what, they love it! And it is not a gimmick to keep my students, it is just good customer care. And if I offer a free BFR to those who complete a course with me, I am not loosing any money, I am investing it! I take a loss to potentially attract more students.

If you believe that students don't pay attention to what you call gimmicks , you are wrong, it is in human nature to get the most for your money. I shop for the cheapest gas, because I want more (quantity) for the same price. I'll go to Best Buy just because they have free shipping, and I'll keep my hairstylist because soon I'll get a free haircut!!
 
You're right, we probably won't agree. I don't buy cheap gas because it makes my car run like crap. I don't shop at Best Buy because their selection sucks (oh, and you're also getting ripped off there btw). I go to the same hairstylist because I like them and I'd rather not go somewhere that I have no experience with. I also know that offering free BFRs won't get me any more students. To each his own.

The lawyer thing, they wouldn't be suing for $40, they'd be suing for however much they spent to get their certificate, plus time and energy to and from the airport, etc., based on the fact that they went to you because you told them they would get a free BFR. A good lawyer would find quite a bit of money to get there, and a good lawyer would also win from false advertising or something similar.
 
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The lawyer thing, they wouldn't be suing for $40, they'd be suing for however much they spent to get their certificate, plus time and energy to and from the airport, etc., based on the fact that they went to you because you told them they would get a free BFR. A good lawyer would find quite a bit of money to get there, and a good lawyer would also win from false advertising or something similar.

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Cheap gas makes your car run like crap? What are you talking about?! You put unleaded 91 in your car, don't tell me you find a difference between the 7/11 and texaco or whatever you can find around!

If you are not shopping for the cheapest unleaded 91 fuel, or are willing to pay more for the same fuel, don't tell me that a free BFR once a while is going to put you under!!

When I was making barely enough to survive in my younger days, I didn't care if my car ran like crap, I was happy it would start! And I wouldn't have gone spend more than what I had to!

I don't agree with your statement on Best Buy either... Most of the stores carry the same products, a JVC Hi-Fi system is not better at The Good Guys than it is at Best Buy! Only the customer service, and free Bs make the difference.
 
Who puts 91 in their car? I put 87 in it, and there damn well is a difference between watered down Arco, and the real gas stations. I put a little money and care into my car to ward off it dying and costing me money that I can't spare.

Again, I did NOT say that Best Buy has bad products, I said their selection is not the greatest. I also said that you are paying more than you have to when you buy stuff there. So now who is spending unnecessary money?
 
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I go to the same hairstylist because I like them and I'd rather not go somewhere that I have no experience with.

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I know one that's really, really good!! She'll probably give you half off your first cut just to get you in the door.

No wonder she makes a killing...she gives things away for free!!!
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Ah, but see in that case, I wouldn't be going there because of the half off, I'd be going there because of your recommendation. But that's just me.
 
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