Keeping track

Just to be clear, my subsequent use of "you" is not personal to anyone, it is used in a generic sense.

I may have mis-worded. By "income" I was actually referring to what you pocket before income taxes, not before paying the overhead costs of operating the business. Charging %30 less because the airplane costs you %30 less is just fine, you're still pocketing $15/hr (for example). Charging %30 less and taking that out of your "paycheck" if you will is what brings out the kickers and chairers. That's what is referred to as "cheapening the industry".

Now if they person providing the airplane at 30% cost reduction is having to make up the difference out of his/her own pocket to keep the airplane flying, then the nut kickers and chair wielders might be going after that person.
 
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Just to be clear, my subsequent use of "you" is not personal to anyone, it is used in a generic sense.


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Not taken personally!
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I may have mis-worded. By "income" I was actually referring to what you pocket before income taxes, not before paying the overhead costs of operating the business. Charging %30 less because the airplane costs you %30 less is just fine, you're still pocketing $15/hr (for example). Charging %30 less and taking that out of your "paycheck" if you will is what brings out the kickers and chairers. That's what is referred to as "cheapening the industry".

Now if they person providing the airplane at 30% cost reduction is having to make up the difference out of his/her own pocket to keep the airplane flying, then the nut kickers and chair wielders might be going after that person.

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Now comes the meat and potatos. what if I (not me, but the flight instructor) owned the airplane? Assuming for the purpose of argument that all of the flight instructors were offering the same product, with the same quality. If I own the aircraft and I provide a cheaper service, I'll most likely get the most students. In the end, I'll make MORE money. Doesn't that make me a better businessman? Aren't I more successful in the end?
 
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If I own the aircraft and I provide a cheaper service, I'll most likely get the most students. In the end, I'll make MORE money. Doesn't that make me a better businessman? Aren't I more successful in the end?

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Yes, IF it comes out more in the end. However, it usually won't work out that way. Most airplanes are operated on a very small profit margin. A 152 will pay for itself at $35/hr, flying at about 800 hours per year, but just barely (and that's in my small part of the country). The club I'm a part of offers its 152's at this cost, and all of the other aircraft at cost (literally), however this is possible because the club is a non-profit corp., and (here's the kicker), aside from $70/mo for the online scheduling (paid for via dues), it has ZERO overhead costs (liability insurance is figured into the hourly rate, hull is self-insured).

Most independent instructors, and I'll venture to say all schools, will have some overhead costs. Be it business licenses, office/classroom space, tiedown/hanger fees, etc., and those costs will drive up the hourly cost of the airplane or instruction.

Now an independent instructor with his/her own airplane may price the airplane at cost plus a margin to cover the overhead, and derive all profit from instruction fees, all fine and good. It mearly means that there is a point at which any reduction in airplane cost will mean money out of the owner's (CFI in this case) pocket, and will quickly suck dry any monetary advantage gained by having more students because of lower price.

There's also the problem of a very finite number of active students a single CFI can handle, and this also puts a cap on the possible gains made from lower prices.

Finding the perfect rate is an incredibly hard chore, and in the eyes of other CFIs, it's better to miss high than low. Missing low is what brings out the nut crunchers and chair whackers.
 
Well, I wasn't expecting so much enthusiasm...
Personnaly, I don't think that offering a free BFR every 2 years is cutting the competition down. It is not only a way to keep potential students, more important you keep track of their progress, their weaknesses and strengths, and can adapt future training according to your findings. You are working toward providing a better product, it all works in your favor.
As for the nut kickers, if 40$ or so every 2 years worry you that much, I don't know what to tell you... I don't think aggressivity is the answer to this post, really...
Look at it in the student's interest, not your own personal quest for money and hours: as a CFI, you are working FOR the students, and a free B goes in their interest.
They pay for your services, which makes you a buisiness; like every other buisiness, you want to put out incentives for your past students to come back to you, and enlarge your clientele.
If, as a CFI, you can justify your rate being above local average, you have acquired a reputation, the instructor who flies for free, why go send him to the hospital? Give him some time, I don't know very many people who can work for free, eat nothing, live in the streets and have no transportation! He will either end up charging like everybody else, or he will disappear, on his own I might add...
Well, I still think that this is a good idea, maybe I should start wearing a shell now when I go hang out around planes!!
 
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as a CFI, you are working FOR the students, . . .


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Be careful, that's a very touchy subject with some CFIs. Some would have a student think that he's lucky just to have a CFI teach him, and that if he doesn't like the CFI's game plan, then he can just go elsewhere . . .

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They pay for your services, which makes you a buisiness; like every other buisiness, you want to put out incentives for your past students to come back to you, and enlarge your clientele.


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Bingo!!! I think that's it right there!! If you want to have a successful business, you have to act like a businessman!!
 
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like every other buisiness, you want to put out incentives for your past students to come back to you, and enlarge your clientele.


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Bingo!!! I think that's it right there!! If you want to have a successful business, you have to act like a businessman!!

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the best business-persons focus on their service or product, not coupons.

I straw-polled all of my students in the past few days. I asked them if my hi-to-bye time billing was unfair. Everyone laughed at me for even asking.
 
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the best business-persons focus on their service or product, not coupons.

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That's kind of like saying that the best store doesn't have to have sales, as long as they have the best customer service. Doesn't work that way.
 
I think that just like any other business, there are going to be different markets. As with any other product or service, there are going to be people who want to pay less. Fine- The CFIs who charge the least will get those people. They might get what they pay for, or they might get a good value, but it's a crap shoot.

There will be people for whom price is not an issue, as long as they get excellent service and instruction. The CFIs who charge a "professional" rate (i.e. along the lines of golf instructors, ski instructors, or lawyers) will get these folks.

Then there are the CFIs who teach very only very specialized topics. For example, at my local airport there are CFIs who only teach GPS stuffs. But I think this takes very skillful marketing on the part of the instructor.

I think the airport a CFI teaches at also is a factor. If you're at a fancy airport with lots of business jets and people who own their own shiny new Cirruses or 172 SPs, you can probably market to the higher rate paying customer base. If you're at an airport with lots of beat-up old Cessnas, you might have to appeal to the student looking for a good deal. As with anything, YMMV.

All that being said, my personal experience is that I've flown with an instructor who charged $15 an hour, and I've flown with an instructor who charged $60 an hour. The $60/hour guy was actually pretty arrogant and gave the attitude that he was beyond question on any aviation topic. The $15 guy was very experienced, loved aviation, had a teaching credential, and when I asked him why he charged so little, he just smiled and said "I'd rather fly 4 hours at $15 than 1 hour at $60." He's a hippie-type though so that might explain his attitude.

I'm not an MBA or a CFI, so I will shut up now. I guess my point is that it really depends on the person, whether it be the student or the CFI. Just my very limited 0.02 on the topic.
 
Very good, Harlock! You don't have to be an MBA or a CFI to understand the logic here! You're exactly right in that some people are willing to pay more, and some people are willing to pay less. It's the same as airplanes. Some people are willing to pay $120 an hour for a brand new 172SP, and others are quite satisfied with a 30 year old 172 (I fall into the latter group).

As flight instructors, we have to decide how we're going to market our services. If you have the clientele and reputation to charge $50 per hour when everyone else is charging $25 per hour, you'd better have something to sell.

My girlfriend is a perfect example. She does hair for a living, and makes more than most regional captains (and more than many major airline FOs). Her services aren't cheap - she gets $21 for a haircut. There are some that are more expensive, and there are many for much less. But the point is that she didn't start right out of school charging $21 for a haircut. If you're a hair stylist, you can appreciate the work that goes into a quality job. If you're deeply invloved in the industry, or you get your hair highlighted, trimmed and styled every week (believe me, some women do...) then you can tell the difference between a $7 haircut and one that costs $21. But the average Joe walking in off of the street? They're not going to pay $21 to get a haircut, PERIOD!!!!

Oh, and by the way, she gives coupons at Christmas to her loyal customers!!! A free haircut!! Does she lose money? Hmmm...I'd probably say that she makes more money because of it. Alot of those clients come in for the free haircut, and end up spending alot more! We can do the same thing! That pilot comes in for his free BFR, and realizes that he's a little rusty on those landings afterall. So....there's some instruction. Had you not offered the free BFR (and the critique that goes with it), you might not have seen him at all!!

Imagine a musician that's never recorded an album (or a CD, for you youngin's
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). No matter how good the music is, they're not going to be able to negotiate a killer deal with a recording company (we're not talking about those fairy boy-bands....real music here). After they've developed a following, however, they can begin to ask for better contracts!

Again, I don't think that the issue is free flight instruction. The issue is creating a larger customer base, without shooting yourself in the foot. I know alot of flight schools that charge wayyyyy too much training. And in my situation, I often have people ask me where the best places to train are. If an instructor is worth $50 per hour, then I'll say so. I have met some!! But when the going rate is $30, you better have more than a ticket and good knowledge of the AIM.

So, in summary...students, choose what's best for you!! But remember what everybody says about the big academy schools....the ticket is the same at the end.
 
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the best business-persons focus on their service or product, not coupons.

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That's kind of like saying that the best store doesn't have to have sales, as long as they have the best customer service. Doesn't work that way.

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Well, apparently it works that way for me, and I am all I can vouch for
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I dont give anything for free. I came to this CFI job with the "consultants blood" carried from my last job, meaning I dont do ANYTHING for free. I was worried that this would hurt me, but I am the busiest CFI at our FBO and all of my students are very happy.
 
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Well, apparently it works that way for me, and I am all I can vouch for I dont give anything for free. I came to this CFI job with the "consultants blood" carried from my last job, meaning I dont do ANYTHING for free. I was worried that this would hurt me, but I am the busiest CFI at our FBO and all of my students are very happy.

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I'll second that. I don't give anything for free, and I'm not hurting for students. Instruction is not like retail sales. Gimmicks will only attract those students to whom saving a buck is the only thing that matters. Those that really care about learning and learning well will go to the best instructor. In this business, what you need is a good reputation, not a gimmick.
 
[quoteThose that really care about learning and learning well will go to the best instructor.

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I hope that you don't really believe that....
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To each his own, though!!
 
An example of someone who doesn't understand that part 61 has the potential to be far and away better than part 141. I'm not saying that those schools being looked at are, or even that they are worth the cost, but the potential is there.

My previous post is from experience, though I'll repeat that initial training is somewhat of a different animal due to the generally zero experience level of the student.
 
All of mine are from experience, too! I've known more than a few people that were willing to travel hundreds of miles to complete quality training, as well as save a hundred bucks or two!!! Does it mean they don't care about the quality of training? I think not!

I think that I was more naive when I was an initial student. Now that I've gotten a few tickets under my belt, I realize that price doesn't make a good instructor, and a low-price instructor may be the best instruction in town!!
 
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I realize that price doesn't make a good instructor, and a low-price instructor may be the best instruction in town!!

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Nowhere did I say that higher price means higher quality, but when the two do go together, then people will pay the price. The problem is that CFIs think they MUST charge as little as possible. Charge what you're worth. People will pay it.
 
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I'll second that. I don't give anything for free, and I'm not hurting for students. Instruction is not like retail sales. Gimmicks will only attract those students to whom saving a buck is the only thing that matters. Those that really care about learning and learning well will go to the best instructor. In this business, what you need is a good reputation, not a gimmick.

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We are not talking about gimmicks, giving 1 hr of free instruction is not a gimmick, you are just trying to expand your buisiness and give yourself a good reputation at the same time. Keep in mind, the best stores (or any buisiness for that matter) do have sales, or do have a preffered clientele prices... Quality has nothing to do with this.
And I will add, I do a lot for free: spend more time on the ground when a student needs it, help answering others questions... I do not, nor does anybody here, get paid for 100% of what I do! I brought my student a cup of coffee the other day, I didn't leave the bill under the cup!!
 
It is a gimmick. You don't need it, and it's something that very few others do. Flight instruction is not like retail sales for many reasons, a couple of which are as follows: you don't need to run "sales" to be successful at flight instructing, and retail stores don't give things away for free all the time.

The nature of the CFI job gives things away for free, you can hardly avoid it. Someone calls me on the phone for advice, I'm not going to charge for that, though I'd be justified for doing so (see lawyers, etc.). Someone at the airport has a random question that ends up taking 30 minutes to answer, I'm not going to charge, though again I'd be justified in doing so. I spent 30 minutes helping someone out tonight and I wasn't even supposed to be at the airport (no charge). However, if it's scheduled, I charge it. "hi to bye" as someone said it, and actually I start the clock when the lesson was scheduled to start, whether the student is on time or not. I'm up front about it and no one has complained, or even hinted about being disgruntled. Just realize that you are a professional, you deserve to be compensated for your time and effort, and then charge accordingly. People understand.

If I could afford it, I'd probably buy students the occasional cup of coffee or whatever, but I can't, so I don't.
 
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you don't need to run "sales" to be successful at flight instructing . . .]

No, you don't. But a free BFR after somebody has just spent a couple thousand dollars with you can certainly help you retain customers!!!

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and retail stores don't give things away for free all the time.


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I don't know....Best Buy is offering free shipping on just about everything that you buy on their website!!I bet that some people that were shopping at Circuit City will order from Best Buy, based completely on that free shipping!! Even if they weren't seriously looking, that will make them stay on that website that much longer!!!!

Here locally, at Best Buy (in today's paper), if you sign up for Comcast High-Speed internet, they give you a $25 gift certificate!

If you buy 2 packs of identical HP paper, they'll give you a $10 gift card.

Buy a car stereo valued at more than $99, and they'll install it for free!!! Imagine, those stupid people installing it for free, when they could milk more money from you!!

That's just from one sales paper.

Compared withthat, a free BFR for a student that did their whole bit of training with me is nothing.

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Someone calls me on the phone for advice, I'm not going to charge for that, though I'd be justified for doing so (see lawyers, etc.).


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I'd never talk even give the time of day to an attorney that wants to charge me for a 10-minute telephone consultation. He'll never get my business. I don't care how long he went to law school, he'd damn well better earn my business...doesn't come automatically.

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Just realize that you are a professional, you deserve to be compensated for your time and effort, and then charge accordingly. People understand.


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See the above statement. You are professional, and you do deserve to be compensated - doesn't mean that you can't treat your customers well. Imagine how much more loyal they'd be!!

I suppose that if you built cars, you'd say that a 36,000 mile warranty is giving away free maintenance?
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If I could afford it, I'd probably buy students the occasional cup of coffee or whatever, but I can't, so I don't.

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Bring them something from home! A cookie, or a slice of cake!!

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