KBTL Hawker 800 crash

SteveC

"Laconic"
Staff member
Looks like a Hawker 800 went down after departing Battle Creek. Speculation is a post-maintenance flight check, with a full stall test. Three on board.

 
Almost all of those test flights turn out just fine.

I’m perfectly content to have never done one (or more).

I'm mostly giving the craic. But one does start to think "Hmm, what if those TKS panels *hadn't* been glued back on correctly?" Etc. etc. That said, I've probably gotten closer to death on my own dime many times. And I'm getting a big discount on mulch these days, so I won't bite the hand that feeds.
 
For a moment I thought this was in reference to the Mk-58 Hawker Hunter crash yesterday, owned/operated by ATAC. This is definitely as scary though, no way out!
 
Almost all of those test flights turn out just fine.

I’m perfectly content to have never done one (or more).
I have "volunteer for verification flight" as a standing request, but those aren't meant to include any use of abnormal or special checklists where I work so...

For a moment I thought this was in reference to the Mk-58 Hawker Hunter crash yesterday, owned/operated by ATAC. This is definitely as scary though, no way out!
Did they manage to run into someone again?
 
I have "volunteer for verification flight" as a standing request, but those aren't meant to include any use of abnormal or special checklists where I work so...


Did they manage to run into someone again?

Nope, sounds like an engine failure from what I have heard. I know a couple guys flying that fleet, hopefully not involved, but it sounds like whoever it was did successfully eject with serious injuries. This is the roughly annual reminder of exactly why I did not pursue this avenue of civilian employment. 50-70 yr old single engine fighters with period correct ejection seats. Couldn't pay me enough, and they don't match the airlines in pay to begin with. Hope he or she is doing better today!
 
Nope, sounds like an engine failure from what I have heard. I know a couple guys flying that fleet, hopefully not involved, but it sounds like whoever it was did successfully eject with serious injuries. This is the roughly annual reminder of exactly why I did not pursue this avenue of civilian employment. 50-70 yr old single engine fighters with period correct ejection seats. Couldn't pay me enough, and they don't match the airlines in pay to begin with. Hope he or she is doing better today!
Would be more fun than the airlines.

ATAC doesn’t have the best safety record.

Isn’t pay pretty low.
 
Would be more fun than the airlines.

ATAC doesn’t have the best safety record.

Isn’t pay pretty low.

I guess my mentality right now, and for the last few years since I left active duty, is that I still get to have the fun on properly maintained (by military) modern fighters.......I have no idea how I will feel when I shut the engines down for the last time and will theoretically never get to go upside down again or pull 7G or whatever else. That's a 2 years away/future me problem though. So in that sense, I am not throwing shade at this. Like you said, it is probably an outlet for a lot of guys who retired or got out, and never had any interest in airline flying. I know plenty of mil people that left and never continued in aviation as civilians.......literally never flew an airplane again.

Not sure if ATAC's mishap/flight hour record is terribly different from that of those airplanes in their active service lives. Those old planes crashed all the time, so perhaps, it is better. And even on the military side, in my community, we lose probably a half dozen jets a year. Obviously very much higher flight hours across the board in that year, but at the end of the day, it's still the nature of dynamic/tactical flying.

Their pay is decent, but yeah, it doesn't touch major/legacy NB FO pay after a few years, especially if you were to fly more than min guarantee. Probably comes closer if you end up in some sort of management position or extra duties (whatever their equivalent of LCA/training is). But I am positive the work/time off ratio is as backwards as active duty is, with their regular detachment support. I don't know about day to day work, but I imagine they have some sort of working hours to make a full-time paycheck. So you are now talking about 40+ hr work weeks. Which can't compare to a commutable job where you might actually fly 40 hrs and credit/get paid 80+.......and sit at home for 18-20 days/month. I definitely wouldn't want to trade places and do this for a living, but I will say that the Hawker Hunter might be one of the most elegant airplanes still in the skies. Reminds me of a winged early Jaguar or something.
 
do a lot of Mx test flying of aircraft out of heavy maintenance or heavy inspection in addition to training evaluator work, and there’s a certain challenge to getting formerly broken aircraft dialed back in once completed, in order for them to be able to be released back to the line for pilots to fly. The various test cards push the aircraft and its systems to the limit, but does it safely, so long as the test iterations are performed correctly. Teaching new Mx test pilots, the challenge is instilling a habit of extreme precision, finesse, and a mindset of slower is faster. None of the test maneuver cards are designed to break or damage anything on the aircraft, but without the aforementioned habits instilled, the chance of doing something like overstressing, breaking, or exceeding a particular limit while following a test card, is high.

Not sure what might have happened in this particular accident, as I’m not read in on the details, just making the point that even when performed correctly, Mx test flying is a different type of flying, with many gotchas from a number of different sources lurking around at all times.
 
There’s a video out there and it looks like a wing is missing. Pretty much shows the airplane corkscrewing towards the ground. One of those videos I could only watch about 2 seconds of it. I can’t remember what social media page I seen it on
 
There’s a video out there and it looks like a wing is missing. Pretty much shows the airplane corkscrewing towards the ground. One of those videos I could only watch about 2 seconds of it. I can’t remember what social media page I seen it on

Oof. That’s far more serious than a stall strip. Unless it was overstressed and departed.

Coming from BTL, I’d imagine it was at Duncan - which is a very large top tier service center for almost every corporate jet. I think this facility might be the one of the largest employers in BTL, or in the running behind the school system.
 
The FR24 track shows basically a slow reduction in airspeed until what looks like a stall/spin from an ADSB standpoint. It was posted on FB, but I can't find it anywhere else. Initially, this struck me as a heavy check gone wrong, which has happened several times before.


View: https://www.facebook.com/reel/25094035623555497


I will echo the cell phone video floating around. The way the airplane is falling and how it looks like a wing is missing.
561265529_1522255705780584_6229568434839271182_n.jpg
 
Back when I worked on Lears when we removed/installed leading edges we'd have to pay a manufacturer approved test pilot to come out and do a series of stall tests before we were able to put the airplane back in service. Does a Hawker require the same thing or is any rated PIC able to do the same thing? My Hawker experience is, thankfully, limited.
 
Yeah, I remember doing some stall checks on the hawkers with Dumont lol... Those planes tried to off us before we even stalled them...
I have very mixed feelings about Hawkers. First and foremost I hate working on them with a blinding hatred of the almost unemployed engineers that designed some steampunk version of a Learjet, on the other hand they're built like a brick •house and once they're sorted they're reliable, solid and pilots like them. I don't like them but that's not important. Lears have/had a well earned reputation for being a handful when pushed into the dark corners of their envelope, is the same true for Hawkers? I always viewed them as sort of benign unless something drastic happened like being hit by a missile or adding winglets. I know nothing about flying Hawkers and I hesitate to blame the crew but were these guys in over their head when they went out for this test flight? I have no idea what work might've been completed but Mexican jets normally only come to the US for big MX events. I've worked in shops that won't take that business because the situation is too murky and the powers that pulled the strings weren't comfortable so the price went up exponentially.
 
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