Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
You're assuming they will actually take the time to fish your bags out. I somehow doubt that would keep them from kicking you off the flight.
Jumpseating and professional courtesy
- Thread starter Bumblebee
- Start date
Bumblebee
Commodore
I appreciate all of the responses on this issue.
I wanted to see where my attitude fit into the spectrum.
My understanding of the professional courtesey of jumpseating was that the primary purpose was to help our fellow pilots:
1. get to work
2. get home from work
3. get somewhere with the cabin full.
I understand that is can be very important to get home, but that was not the number one priority when ALPA negotiated these agreements (as I understand).
The first officer in question was on a leisure trip to see his girlfriend in SEA and was returning home. (So no wife and kids or work involved).
There was a number of options that would have allowed him to be home within three hours.
I appreciate that some airlines have a commute policy. I do however, think that we all should do our best not to impact the company for which we work and that these commute policies were negotiated with the idea that we would act with these priorities in mind.
thread hijack>>>As far as the union aspect to this, my friend did vote for a union on the last drive. I don't know if the other pilot did or not, and that really has nothing to do with this discussion.
The issue I have with some of the attitudes displayed by some union promoters is the constant "Us vs. Them" mentality. In union shops there have been many cases where the union boss would tell the more productive employees to slow down their work because they were making the others look bad. Electrical unions that could have completed jobs in 2 weeks, but sandbagged it so that they could get the three weeks in the contract. These practices are equally bad as management not following policy. This kind of attitude poisons the water.<<<end hijack
I spoke with our jumpseat coordinator and his attitude was more in line with Mike D...the priority is to get pilots to work, then home from work...then other types of travel.
...but that's just one mans opinion.
I wanted to see where my attitude fit into the spectrum.
My understanding of the professional courtesey of jumpseating was that the primary purpose was to help our fellow pilots:
1. get to work
2. get home from work
3. get somewhere with the cabin full.
I understand that is can be very important to get home, but that was not the number one priority when ALPA negotiated these agreements (as I understand).
The first officer in question was on a leisure trip to see his girlfriend in SEA and was returning home. (So no wife and kids or work involved).
There was a number of options that would have allowed him to be home within three hours.
I appreciate that some airlines have a commute policy. I do however, think that we all should do our best not to impact the company for which we work and that these commute policies were negotiated with the idea that we would act with these priorities in mind.
thread hijack>>>As far as the union aspect to this, my friend did vote for a union on the last drive. I don't know if the other pilot did or not, and that really has nothing to do with this discussion.
The issue I have with some of the attitudes displayed by some union promoters is the constant "Us vs. Them" mentality. In union shops there have been many cases where the union boss would tell the more productive employees to slow down their work because they were making the others look bad. Electrical unions that could have completed jobs in 2 weeks, but sandbagged it so that they could get the three weeks in the contract. These practices are equally bad as management not following policy. This kind of attitude poisons the water.<<<end hijack
I spoke with our jumpseat coordinator and his attitude was more in line with Mike D...the priority is to get pilots to work, then home from work...then other types of travel.
...but that's just one mans opinion.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
I was jumpseating last night to get to work so I could sit reserve over the holiday. A mainline guy was trying to get home for the holiday and I had jumpseat priority. I told him to take it, he said it wasn't necessary, but I insisted he take the jumpseat. He's trying to get home to his family, and this company can lick my turds anyway if I don't make it to work. So I let him ride and I waited another 3 hours for a flight. Hopefully somebody returns me the favor in the future. Commuting to work is not nearly as important as commuting home...at least in my opinion anyway. I'm not about to fight over a jumpseat to get to work, but getting home, I take the gloves off.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Amen, brother. Someone has their priorities straight, thankfully.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I think that whole line about how a union rep would tell someone to be less productive is probably mostly myth. If you're an electrical worker and you're working in a union shop you probably won't see any repercussions because someone comes along and does it more quickly, unless your union is incompetent. (And this is also assuming that the quicker one has the same level of quality which isn't usually the case.)
Also, that doesn't really have any bearing on any pilot unions because thankfully we're not measured by productivity metrics, individually anyway.
Also, that doesn't really have any bearing on any pilot unions because thankfully we're not measured by productivity metrics, individually anyway.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Good point here...
I think the attitude of "screw the company" by whom you are employed is an issue however.
I believe if you feel that way, you can never come to a collaberative approach, and that in order for one to win the other must lose. We all want to work for a successful company, and then share in the fruits of that success. I agree that unions are instrumental in forcing greedy management types to share the wealth, but combative union types can poison positive work environments and have a detrimental effect.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
It's not. On multiple occasions I watched an IATSE boss tell guys to slow down when they were loading in or out a show because otherwise the facility would expect the union to do quicker load ins/outs in the future.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Management teams breed the type of union they deserve.
Take a look at Southwest and their unions. They all have an EXCELLENT working relationship with their management. A union DOESN'T need to be adversarial relationship with the company, but partners to work together to solve problems that are faced mutually.
Definately not a myth. I worked for years in General Motors factories, and later worked with skilled trade unions on jobs all over the country. That kind of stuff happens. I remember getting a "heads-up" as a young guy running some production valve lifter grinding equipment on the second shift, and was making my quota way early in the shift. I very quickly got the hint that I'd better slow down to everyone else's pace.
Not sure that I'm following what you're saying here, but like I said above it's the guy that works too quickly that catches grief from the other union members, not the slow guy getting in trouble from the company. It always struck me as a good way to drive your own company right out of business by increasing costs, but the prevailing thought that I <sometimes> saw from the union members was all about me-me-me. Lowest common denominator kind of thinking.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
It all depends on who you have running your company. At the current company (rather small by airline standards cargo outfit) I work for, there is no union but everyone is treated like a human being for the most part. Am rather content.
When I was at Mesa I was a volunteer for ALPA, albeit a rookie one and for a committee that has a rather thankless and unsexy job. Maybe it is the fact that I saw most of what occured and got emails everytime someone got screwed over but I'm not sure if you could say my attitude was 'screw the company' so much as 'hold the company to exactly what the CBA says, and give them no free passes because with the way they treat their employees they deserve none'. Obviously I was so rookie that I kept these views to myself, because it wasn't really my place as a volunteer to do the job of a status rep. But I was always disappointed when we let the company get away with something, for seemingly nothing.
Some people might view that attitude as rather 'hard lined' and even say 'You have to work with the company.' Why is it that working with the company only ever goes one direction, I always wondered.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Well, I'm thinking that so long as the other guys are making quota they can't really discipline them because a small minority are doing it quicker. So why would they care if they 'looked bad'? I dunno.
Bumblebee
Commodore
my response was to this type of thought process (not to pick on you Airdale, I do not know your employment situatiion)
I think that is the way we used to be at OO but we have outgrown that....I have only seen an overall reduction in benefits, pay and QOL here, so things really must change.
That does not mean, however that I feel that I should shirk my responsibilities as a professional. Remember, when you don't make it to work, the company's respose will be to get a reserve. It does nothing to hurt the airlines bottom line. You are only making it difficult on a fellow employee.
Because the quota is going to go up if the company knows that the work can be done quicker than the current rate.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Seggy is absolutely right. The kind of attitude you describe is the result of management teams that are openly hostile. AirTran used to have a much more cooperative attitude from workers. That has slowly disappeared and is being replaced with open hostility. Why? Because management has undertaken a concentrated campaign of threats and intimidation, not to mention outsourcing our flying.
Managements get the unions that they deserve.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Airline managers get excited about reserve utilization, though.
Ah.... should negotiate them into the working agreement!
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
REAHS is hit and miss when it comes to service. Some employees still have loyalty to their original employer. I've had several times they've screwed us here in CVG. We had several repo flights that needed to take mx and parts to fix broke a/c; and were not supposed to leave the gate till both were on board. Mechs and part arrive to an empty gate!:banghead: I'm getting to know the CVG tower guys really well!
It used to be a free for all as far as ballast was concerned. I used to see SkyWest and other DCI ballast when I used to be CS in MCO. Since some DCI carriers fly for more than just Delta, and some outstation were handling more than just DCI; ballast was getting spread to other airlines and was costing more money to replenish the ballst. Delta/DCI told us to keep track of our own ballst and were only to use our own ballast on our a/c.
ChasenSFO
hen teaser
I've seen it where a flight attendant had a gate check bag and we didn't want a delay so I was told to deny boarding to a paying passanger who showed up right as the doors were closed. It happens.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Wow, that's a rarity. Worked out good for the FA on that flight tho.
Todd, I find it strange that you who were/are as big a union card jumpseat as negotiated benefit and all would come out on the side of the guy going home getting the js over someone going to work. Don't forget the whole point of negotiating for being able to ride the jumpseat was to get pilots TO WORK. That being said, if I'm trying to go home and someone is trying to get to work you better believe I will be giving him the seat (provided I have another option to get home). I would expect no less from any other jumspeaters. Further, I would not be the least remiss in asking someone who had a seat if they were going home or to work if I was trying to get to work.
Mark, that dude who didn't give you the seat after 3407 deserved to get a size 15 shoe up his ass. That's just inexcusable.
Todd, I find it strange that you who were/are as big a union card jumpseat as negotiated benefit and all would come out on the side of the guy going home getting the js over someone going to work. Don't forget the whole point of negotiating for being able to ride the jumpseat was to get pilots TO WORK. That being said, if I'm trying to go home and someone is trying to get to work you better believe I will be giving him the seat (provided I have another option to get home). I would expect no less from any other jumspeaters. Further, I would not be the least remiss in asking someone who had a seat if they were going home or to work if I was trying to get to work.
Mark, that dude who didn't give you the seat after 3407 deserved to get a size 15 shoe up his ass. That's just inexcusable.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Not sure why people think that it was only meant to go one way. The point of negotiating the jumpseat was for general purposes, not just to get people to work. It's a negotiated benefit meant to help pilots in whatever way they want to use it, provided it isn't for business purposes.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Come on now. Obviously the intent was to go both ways, but you would never win the battle if you didn't set the priority as getting to work over getting home.