job options for low time pilots

A lot a of guys on here haven't been in the industry very long. I started flight training in the fall of 2000. From observing the experience level of my flight instructors, I was expecting to instruct until I had 2500hrs before I had an oppurtunity to even interview at a regional. People getting hired with the bare mins or sub-1000hrs is not the norm.

Even when I moved to Dallas after college, I couldn't find anyone that would hire me with only my CFI. Everyone, wanted a CFII and MEI. Some flight schools even were looking for atleast 350hrs dual given. I was fortunate to bump into skymates (I was actually looking for another school on the field at the time) where I did my CFII and MEI. They were slow at the time and couldn't hire me, but recommended me to another school in DFW that was hurting for CFI's because of the huge amounts of foreign students that they had there.

...and the rest is history.

Take advantage of the schools that are catering to the foreign students while they are still paying well and people are not willing to be CFI's! It will put you ahead!
 
you mean people actually have to work their way up now? :)

screw that, I'm heading overseas where I can fly an A320 for 300TT
 
aloft said:
Hauling skydivers, towing banners, towing gliders, aerial mapping, traffic watch, pipeline patrol, fish spotting, Pt 135/Pt 91k/corporate SIC, etc etc etc....
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there you go ....thinking outside the box again...

golly gee, if a guy doesn't exactly fit the model of the standard way to the airlines he'll never have a career.

that's why sometimes this place boggles my mind. the same attitude is prevalent with "this is the right way to do it, no matter what, if you do things in a manner different from the norm you're a dumbass, are dangerous and are going to get someone killed." Not true. A wise man told me (he's got 22 thousand hours, 99% of it flying in dangerous conditions, btw) You have to think for yourself, the AFM, the Regs, all of it are for nothing if you followed them blithely into a mountain. Think for yourself, be creative, and you'll find work. Even if that means you have to be a mechanics helper at a local FBO while you look for jobs. You'll find soemthing, just think for yourself first.

-pat
 
We've been round and round on this subject here. Most of us just believe that instructing is the best route. A lot of those other gigs are very hard to come by with a fresh commercial certificate.

Most of my buddies that fly right seat part 91 have atleast 1500 plus hours. Heck, look at our very own RyanMcG. He just got a job doing this very thing and this guy has more time than most regional captains on here do.

There are not very many skydive, traffic watch, fish finding, and etc...gigs out there. I would even say that as competitive as things may be about to get, you'd want a little be more than some of these VFR only gigs. If you could find one of these gigs, certainly don't botch on the oppourtunity to experience it. You're going to want something as solid as being a CFI on your resume when it comes to getting that first regional or freight job. The foundation is usually so much more solid with instructors.

I can tell you that my company (especially now that they're not desperate:)) will pick the CFI over the traffic watch and skydive guy everytime. Too many of those guys wash out of training to invest in.

In conclusion, I'd say that there are other ways of getting to the mountain top. CFI'ing is just the better way. All this is just my opinion of course.
 
KLB said:
You're going to want something as solid as being a CFI on your resume when it comes to getting that first regional or freight job. The foundation is usually so much more solid with instructors.
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It's interesting that we've never heard this from anybody who wasn't an instructor. A possible bias, perhaps.
 
I know for a fact that's the way it is at my company. Most of them that were given a chance didn't even make it through sims. They really like CFI's there.
 
Same here, the VFR guys that do traffic watch and banner tow etc have a much higher fail percentage than the rest of the group as a whole. Their ideal candidate is a lower time (1000-2000 hours) younger CFI-I or ex-135 freight guy.
 
It should tell you something when you look at WHO is telling to CFI and who isn't.

Captains at airlines and 135 freight companies are telling you to CFI. 172 drivers are telling you there are other ways.
You are in florida. There are more CFI jobs there then anything else at your hour range. But go ahead and listen to Aloft, he has "life experience" unfortunetly they look for a little more then that at the interview table.
 
mikecweb said:
It should tell you something when you look at WHO is telling to CFI and who isn't.

Captains at airlines and 135 freight companies are telling you to CFI. 172 drivers are telling you there are other ways.
You are in florida. There are more CFI jobs there then anything else at your hour range. But go ahead and listen to Aloft, he has "life experience" unfortunetly they look for a little more then that at the interview table.
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I don't drive a 172 (granted I drive a 207, but I don't have to). I'm saying figure it out for yourself, if you want to try to build time the other way then do it. CFI-ing is by far the most efficient way to build time, but I know plenty of very successful pilots who don't have a CFI. I say efficient because it typically builds time at a fairly good pace, and its typically safer than the alternatives for a low time guy. The major advantage to a CFI is the knowledge you get, and the fact that typically it gets you your first job. Though you may not CFI (I didn't, my buddies - 135 Freight Captains, and a couple of AK airlines guys, didn't) it may be advantageous for you to have it because of the prejudice that is displayed toward non-CFIs.

As for keeping you instrument current, I've seen plenty of CFIIs who couldn't fly their way out of a wet paper bag, and I would trust my life in the clouds to a Bethel bush rat who barely had an instrument rating before I would even an experienced CFII. Further, I watched my friends who did CFI gradually lose some of their stick and rudder skills because they weren't flying, they were just monitoring as they got students who were more desireable. Just because you've got 500hrs of Dual Given doesn't mean you're going to be able to actually fly better than somebody who flew banners or pipeline patrol. Indeed, I'd think I'd rather have a banner tow pilot who's a test pilot everytime he gets into his bastardized field approved airplane than an instructor who doesn't know better.

I'm in the process of getting my initial now, not because I want a glamourous career as a flight instructor, but because there is one thing that the CFI gives you that a guy could need in these unstable economic times. A fall back. Because straight out of the gate, what are you going to do if you get furloughed, or you get laid off, or (as I just found out) the great job you had lined out turned out to be a bum deal, wellllllll you can go and CFI. That's the advantage of a CFI, a fall back job, and usually getting your first job.

I've been led to a conclusion with the to CFI or not to CFI debate, its that low time CFIs don't know enough about flying themselves to train really good pilots, and that's where I think a fundamental flaw in the system we have lies. Granted, CFI-ing is a hell of a lot better than right seating in an RJ, or even a 1900 (done that, and its fun, but its not PIC where you learn to make your own decisions) however, there is not demand for pilots in jobs like banner tow, traffic watch, etc to build enough time to go on so called "real jobs." That being said, CFI-ing isn't really a good solution because we have a whole bunch of inexperienced guys and gals out there teaching people to fly who even have less experience. There needs to be something else out there other than the traditional method, and the traditional alternatives to tradition for people to build experience. You'll figure something out, you just have to be creative if you want to figure it out.

-pat

ps good luck
 
aloft said:
It's interesting that we've never heard this from anybody who wasn't an instructor. A possible bias, perhaps.
Click to expand...


While I agree that being a CFI is not the only way to the airlines this is straight from the ASA website: (look at the very last line next to the *)





Minimum Requirements:
  • 500 hours total time*
  • 50 hours multi-engine time
  • Recency of flight experience will be considered
  • Current FAA Class 1 Medical Certificate
  • Vision corrected to 20/20
  • Well groomed and able to maintain a professional appearance
  • FCC radio license
  • ATP Written preferred
  • Successfully pass a drug screen analysis
  • Legally authorized to work in the United States and have a valid passport
  • Undergo a criminal history records check through an FBI based fingerprint system
  • Extensive background and reference check
  • College preferred, minimum high school diploma or GED
  • Minimum age 20
* Hours acquired in banner towing, traffic watch or aerial photography are not the best way to build flight time



go to www.flyasa.com to see for yourself.
just thought i'd share...


Also... 11k for CFI/CFII? That is very pricey. I got CFI/CII at American Flyers for about 4.5k.
 
KLB said:
We've been round and round on this subject here. Most of us just believe that instructing is the best route. A lot of those other gigs are very hard to come by with a fresh commercial certificate.

Most of my buddies that fly right seat part 91 have atleast 1500 plus hours. Heck, look at our very own RyanMcG. He just got a job doing this very thing and this guy has more time than most regional captains on here do.

There are not very many skydive, traffic watch, fish finding, and etc...gigs out there. I would even say that as competitive as things may be about to get, you'd want a little be more than some of these VFR only gigs. If you could find one of these gigs, certainly don't botch on the oppourtunity to experience it. You're going to want something as solid as being a CFI on your resume when it comes to getting that first regional or freight job. The foundation is usually so much more solid with instructors.

I can tell you that my company (especially now that they're not desperate:)) will pick the CFI over the traffic watch and skydive guy everytime. Too many of those guys wash out of training to invest in.

In conclusion, I'd say that there are other ways of getting to the mountain top. CFI'ing is just the better way. All this is just my opinion of course.
Click to expand...

Thank God I'm glad somebody finally said it.
 
Alright, someone said something about wanting to hear both sides of this argument. I posted earlier that I built a lot of time flying skydivers, which is true I built close to 600hrs last year simply flying skydivers in a 182, but my first priority was a sic with a part 135 company who had two king airs.

I started out working on my cfi and then through networking I met the owner/chief pilot of this charter company who said that they might need someone to do a little contract SICing to which I jumped on board and never looked back. He later sent to me to FSI Intial on the King Air and while all my buddies are cfi ing in the hot summer in a SE cessna I was making more money in an air conditioned King Air.

Last October this 135 company closed shop and there I was jobless. What do I do now, again through NETWORKING I found a part 91 gig who started flying me, since I had been to KA intial and later another 135 company who I am now pretty content with flying for and is sending me to recurrent this next week and hopefully Pilatus intial later in the summer.

My biggest thing for low time pilots is to just continue plugging at it and make sure to network every where you go. Don't try to impress someone with your knowlege of the FARS because frankly they could give a rats ass and are going to KNOW that your a tool. NETWORKING IS HUGE!!!

Lastly, two years ago when the NBAA was in Orlando, I jumped on to the bus to the static display and just happened to sit by one of the execs with bombardier to which I had no idea who he was, but we struck up a conversation before he left he said "The best advice I can give you is learn people skills and customer service skills. We have sent trained monkeys into space, a company can teach you how to fly an airplane, but it's very hard to teach people and customers service skills and those two are huge if you want to be a pilot."
 
ufgators said:
* Hours acquired in banner towing, traffic watch or aerial photography are not the best way to build flight time
Click to expand...

You may get some flight hours doing that kind of flying, but you get nothing in the way of planning and XC hours. Those would be some boring logbook entries. :buck:
 
ppragman said:
I don't drive a 172 (granted I drive a 207, but I don't have to). I'm saying figure it out for yourself, if you want to try to build time the other way then do it. CFI-ing is by far the most efficient way to build time, but I know plenty of very successful pilots who don't have a CFI. I say efficient because it typically builds time at a fairly good pace, and its typically safer than the alternatives for a low time guy. The major advantage to a CFI is the knowledge you get, and the fact that typically it gets you your first job. Though you may not CFI (I didn't, my buddies - 135 Freight Captains, and a couple of AK airlines guys, didn't) it may be advantageous for you to have it because of the prejudice that is displayed toward non-CFIs.

As for keeping you instrument current, I've seen plenty of CFIIs who couldn't fly their way out of a wet paper bag, and I would trust my life in the clouds to a Bethel bush rat who barely had an instrument rating before I would even an experienced CFII. Further, I watched my friends who did CFI gradually lose some of their stick and rudder skills because they weren't flying, they were just monitoring as they got students who were more desireable. Just because you've got 500hrs of Dual Given doesn't mean you're going to be able to actually fly better than somebody who flew banners or pipeline patrol. Indeed, I'd think I'd rather have a banner tow pilot who's a test pilot everytime he gets into his bastardized field approved airplane than an instructor who doesn't know better.

I'm in the process of getting my initial now, not because I want a glamourous career as a flight instructor, but because there is one thing that the CFI gives you that a guy could need in these unstable economic times. A fall back. Because straight out of the gate, what are you going to do if you get furloughed, or you get laid off, or (as I just found out) the great job you had lined out turned out to be a bum deal, wellllllll you can go and CFI. That's the advantage of a CFI, a fall back job, and usually getting your first job.

I've been led to a conclusion with the to CFI or not to CFI debate, its that low time CFIs don't know enough about flying themselves to train really good pilots, and that's where I think a fundamental flaw in the system we have lies. Granted, CFI-ing is a hell of a lot better than right seating in an RJ, or even a 1900 (done that, and its fun, but its not PIC where you learn to make your own decisions) however, there is not demand for pilots in jobs like banner tow, traffic watch, etc to build enough time to go on so called "real jobs." That being said, CFI-ing isn't really a good solution because we have a whole bunch of inexperienced guys and gals out there teaching people to fly who even have less experience. There needs to be something else out there other than the traditional method, and the traditional alternatives to tradition for people to build experience. You'll figure something out, you just have to be creative if you want to figure it out.

-pat

ps good luck
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Hey Pat!

I can see your argument, but I can tell you from personal experience that the further you get away from that initial experience the sloppier your instructing can get. No matter what level, be it as a 300hr newbie CFI or a 3000hr CFI who's been flying 121/135 for a while. There are advantages to both. As a new CFI fresh our of a checkride you're going to no your stuff. You'll have to get the teaching technique down.

I've spent the last week reviewing 61, 91, and 135 regs. Everytime I do this (every six months) I'm amazed at the amount of information I used to be able to spit out without giving it a second thought compared to amount of info that I just flat out forgot. I actually had to text my friend for the acronym that I use to remember part 91 equipment used required for IFR (VFR +GRABCARD).:)

I can say that I was much more sharper with this kind of stuff when I was a CFI compared to now. Mainly because your company op specs trumps so much of whats in the regs. You just don't use it enough day to day in the "real world" to retain it. CFI'ing is something that you have to do on a consistant basis to be good at. You can't have a student every once in a while and expect to be better than the low timer who does it day in and day out.

Thats not to say that I don't have the real world experience and previous instructing experience backing me up. Instructing is way harder than the type of flying that I'm doing now though!:)
 
I love this thread.

Being a CFI isn't the only way, but it may be the least pleasurable way. Don't be afraid to walk a different path. Get out there and apply to anything that you qualify for and see where it takes you. You can do it the same as everyone else and be one of the same, or make yourself a unique and valuable asset in your own niche. Don't buy the 'only a CFI is prepared for the regionals/135.' B.S. You already learned to fly instruments so you can refresh a little and be right back on top of your game. It isn't like the II counting houses while his student screws up another hold in severe clear is getting great experience.

What makes you special?
 
KLB said:
I can tell you that my company (especially now that they're not desperate:)) will pick the CFI over the traffic watch and skydive guy everytime. Too many of those guys wash out of training to invest in.
Click to expand...

That's certainly one datapoint, but I've had a SkyWest captain tell me the exact opposite; he said CFIs are a dime a dozen, it's better to have a variety of experience with which to distinguish yourself from the pack. Oh, yeah...he isn't a CFI either.

KLB said:
In conclusion, I'd say that there are other ways of getting to the mountain top. CFI'ing is just the better way. All this is just my opinion of course.
Click to expand...

I wish people would keep this in mind when posting. We all may believe wholeheartedly in what we're saying, but bottom line, all we're doing is sharing opinion, and it's no more valid than anyone else's.
 
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