JetBlue
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CFI A&P
Exploring the world one toilet at a time.
Der rote Baron
Well-Known Member
In our company we have is an so called "Safe Guard" for such cases. You'll lose appr. 20 K Euro the rest is covered.
Ecl!pse
Well-Known Member
These won't be popular opinions/questions, so bear with me. I'm open to be educated. While change is tough, I really think this has the opportunity to standardize airline training in a way that can make the industry even more efficient (and possibly even safer - though the industry is exceptionally safe as-is). It's a utopian thought, but I'm a big fan of structure/standardization - and if airlines have the ability to groom pilots from day one, rather than getting various candidates with different training background/habits (not necessarily bad) and trying to mold them into something else, I think that could have profound impacts on training departments.
I think that's a fairly strong assertion - I don't see it the same as a Gulfstream situation. As I recall, Gulfstream students paid the company to occupy the right seat of the aircraft - in exchange for building time and getting airline operation experience, bypassing the traditional CFI route. Here it seems you will pay for the same basic training requirements as any other pilot, with an emphasis on airline operations, and then will have the opportunity to join as a paid employee upon completion of the program - first as a CFI with the program, then as a pilot at JetBlue.
Per the website, it looks like a college degree isn't required (though preferred) - so it potentially could replace a 4-year degree, making the $125K a bit easier of a pill to swallow. And if I look at ATP's professional pilot program, it looks like the cost is ~$80K - where I think you don't get airline specific sim training. It sounds like once you're done with the program you have an employment contract with JetBlue, so it could reduce the payback period on your investment.
The website also says financing options are being explored, so the clientele could include more than just those who are wealthy. If it's executed well, this could expand the pool of pilot candidates to anybody, independent of financial means - I think that is a good thing for the profession.
I think that's a fairly strong assertion - I don't see it the same as a Gulfstream situation. As I recall, Gulfstream students paid the company to occupy the right seat of the aircraft - in exchange for building time and getting airline operation experience, bypassing the traditional CFI route. Here it seems you will pay for the same basic training requirements as any other pilot, with an emphasis on airline operations, and then will have the opportunity to join as a paid employee upon completion of the program - first as a CFI with the program, then as a pilot at JetBlue.
Per the website, it looks like a college degree isn't required (though preferred) - so it potentially could replace a 4-year degree, making the $125K a bit easier of a pill to swallow. And if I look at ATP's professional pilot program, it looks like the cost is ~$80K - where I think you don't get airline specific sim training. It sounds like once you're done with the program you have an employment contract with JetBlue, so it could reduce the payback period on your investment.
The website also says financing options are being explored, so the clientele could include more than just those who are wealthy. If it's executed well, this could expand the pool of pilot candidates to anybody, independent of financial means - I think that is a good thing for the profession.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
I've wanted to do a lot of things since I was 15. None of them involve working or flying. Most of them involve: sailboats, surfboards and bikini clad girls from Denmark. I'm really not cut out to be an airline pilot, I think my standards are a bit too high.
Although I guess things I've wanted to do since I was 15 do involve some form of aviation:
Hanging out at the Red Roof Inn JFK and rubbing two pennies together hoping to invoke the patron saint of free beer? Yeah, not so much.
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Seggy
Well-Known Member
From my understanding a program like this won't solve all the problems as the schools can't handle more than a few dozen at a time in a program like this.
Furthermore, if you are going to set it up, set it up properly from the beginning. From what I was told by some folks in the know, that is hardly the case.
I am not against a real ab initio program. Something like Gateway 7 isn't that though.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
I don't know enough about the details of how it is set up, but I haven't seen anything concerning. They have a screening process similar to the testing that Delta does. They will go to training, get their ratings, then instruct for 1200 - 1300 hours. After that, they will do a jet transition course, and come through the normal new hire training program. Sorry, but I just don't see the problem with it.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I am for that as well, but as you state it is a utopian idea. If money gets tight, the training footprint will be looked to be reduced and the training towards this standardization and efficiency we all want isn't there. Then you have folks with little time or experience paying to be put in the right seat.
Also, a concern I have is that if JetBlue gets reduced minimums for pilots under this program, the individual pilot can't leave for another airline as they could look for that reduction in hours to be tied to JetBlue. That creates numerous issues as well as CRM concerns. If your employment is tied to one airline one may be less likely to speak up if there is an issue as they don't want to rock the boat and be looked at. We all know how that doesn't work.
I think it is accurate to describe it as the 'new PFJ'. That is actually a huge cause of heartburn, the point that the applicants have to pay for it. Doesn't an airline want the best employees instead of those that can get a loan or have mommy or daddy pay for it?
I do think that a program like this can work, I really do, but not in the form of a Gateway 7 program.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Someone paying $125,000 for this as opposed to the thousands of applicants that can already pass the screening, with a lot more experience, is a problem.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
It's but one path, and not even the widest path. Do you have all of your investments in one stock? This is just diversifying the pilot supply.
I'm glad my company thinks outside the box, and thinks about how to spur interest in the career. I understand ALPAs opposition. I just wish they would say what they mean. It's not a safety concern. It's a pilot competition concern. ALPA has members who will be in competition with these gateway guys. So clearly they are opposed to it. Call it like it is, and don't drag the word "safety" into the fray.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Once again, I am all for ab initio type programs to think outside of the box or diversify. This isn't it. Also, if you think outside of the box, why not bring stakeholders, like ALPA in the loop what is going on for input to make the program better? Was that done?
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Count me as one of the many who think that safety is closely tied to pay.
I know, I know a true professional wont let something like low pay affect safety. Well not until they get really hungry anyway.
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Der rote Baron
Well-Known Member
Agreed, I had the same concern when my employer started their program. Most LCC's aren't a career destinations. When I joined my current employer I had a clear plan. Getting the command as fast as possible, add a certain amount of hours as PIC and then apply either in the ME or Asia making some money. Those who started last year are now tied with an LCC on a very low salary for years. In the meantime the airline hires DEC to fill the gap and the time to command is getting longer...
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Low pay isn't at issue here. The gateway 7 guys get paid the same as gateway 1.
Mark815
Well-Known Member
I don't agree. Not everyone wants to up and move to the Middle East or Asia, just because you can sit in the left seat quicker.
I'd be very happy to park my butt at Jetblue and make it a career. I don't need to make senior 747 captain in order to be happy in this industry. My career goal is QOL, not what seat I'm sitting in.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Could it have been announced/developed in a more collaborative environment? Perhaps. But that doesn't make it a bad program.
My main frustration with JBALPA on this is that they are going to spend negotiating capital to try and stop it. We have MUCH bigger fish to fry.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Mesa Pilot Development in Farmington, NM was a similar thing. It worked really well. Basically, you had a semester to complete your private, a time building course, then instrument/commercial, then multi. People who did not finish on time were not allowed to continue. This basically weeded out all the folks who weren't able to grasp the hand/eye coordination of flying (I hesitate to say 'naturals' because most can be taught in a reasonable time frame) and those who weren't willing to study on their own.
The people who made it to the end were sharp. They had something like a 98% hire rate at Mesa, and I wouldn't hesitate to sit in the back of the airplane they were flying. The another nice thing is the entire program cost around $50,000 and that included a 2-year degree. Quite a bit cheaper than this program, although the job prospects are better.
The people who made it to the end were sharp. They had something like a 98% hire rate at Mesa, and I wouldn't hesitate to sit in the back of the airplane they were flying. The another nice thing is the entire program cost around $50,000 and that included a 2-year degree. Quite a bit cheaper than this program, although the job prospects are better.
Der rote Baron
Well-Known Member
Agreed, I should have said "Most LCC in Europe aren't a career destination".
TomcatG
Well-Known Member
http://pilots.jetblue.com/gateway-select/training
More details are in the link above. From the reading, it sounds like you will get your PPL, IR, CPL, CFI, CFII, ATP. Work CFI until you have 1,500 hrs, then onto the right seat of a E190 for Jetblue. The typical path for most pilots, except most pilots at 1,500 hours end up at a regional instead of the right seat of a E190 at a LCC.
When Gateway 7 was announced, someone mentioned this maybe use as a negotiating tool against the union as a sort of trade for other benefits by the company, but I guess not anymore,the company is serious about this. Is it too late to stop this?
It is good to see Gateway 3 available. I wish other airlines would have something like Gateway 3 for an employee who wants to pay for their own ratings and work their way up to 1,500 hr on their time and not lose the seniority and other benefits.
Why would jetBlue require a $200 fee for screening? Does jetBlue charge a fee for other gateways? I guess you can count a ticket to a job fair as a fee for Gateway 1, but is it normally that expensive?
The $125K for everything would turn some people off, unless you have the money already, or rich parents. I can't imagine a bank wiling to loan $125k out for something so far out in the future, unless there is a payment plan, but that's a whole other animal.
I understand jetBlue is trying to get ahead of the curve in fighting for pilots, but I feel like they can do more to subsidize the training if they are wanting to attract more/best pilots.
What happens to Gateway 7 pilots if the company needs to furlough because of a downturn in the economy? Will Gateway 7 pilots be part of the union?
So many questions left unanswered!
More details are in the link above. From the reading, it sounds like you will get your PPL, IR, CPL, CFI, CFII, ATP. Work CFI until you have 1,500 hrs, then onto the right seat of a E190 for Jetblue. The typical path for most pilots, except most pilots at 1,500 hours end up at a regional instead of the right seat of a E190 at a LCC.
When Gateway 7 was announced, someone mentioned this maybe use as a negotiating tool against the union as a sort of trade for other benefits by the company, but I guess not anymore,the company is serious about this. Is it too late to stop this?
It is good to see Gateway 3 available. I wish other airlines would have something like Gateway 3 for an employee who wants to pay for their own ratings and work their way up to 1,500 hr on their time and not lose the seniority and other benefits.
Why would jetBlue require a $200 fee for screening? Does jetBlue charge a fee for other gateways? I guess you can count a ticket to a job fair as a fee for Gateway 1, but is it normally that expensive?
The $125K for everything would turn some people off, unless you have the money already, or rich parents. I can't imagine a bank wiling to loan $125k out for something so far out in the future, unless there is a payment plan, but that's a whole other animal.
I understand jetBlue is trying to get ahead of the curve in fighting for pilots, but I feel like they can do more to subsidize the training if they are wanting to attract more/best pilots.
What happens to Gateway 7 pilots if the company needs to furlough because of a downturn in the economy? Will Gateway 7 pilots be part of the union?
So many questions left unanswered!
