JetBlue vs. Frontier - CJOs at Both

[Luftwaffles]

I’m in a bit of a predicament: I have offers at both JetBlue & Frontier. I almost wish I didn’t have the decision to make as my mind would have otherwise been made up for me. I was hoping I could get some objective advice that might make the right decision more clear.

For starters, I’m very familiar with the pros & cons of each company’s contract, the history of the organizations, future plans, etc. I am of the opinion that, present day, JetBlue is a superior company in most ways. However, Frontier has a lot of potential if its growth plans come to fruition and they improve their operations, customer service, etc.

Now, one major plus with Frontier is that I could live in base (ORD). That’s obviously worth a lot. However, commuting from ORD to BOS or NYC has to be one of the easiest commutes there is. I’ve talked to a few B6 pilots that live in the Chicago area and they haven’t had any gripes with commuting for JetBlue. Moreover, ORD is a pretty small base for Frontier. With all the F9 aircraft orders, ORD may grow. It also may go away if it gets too expensive to operate there; the ULCC model seems very fickle when it comes to bases since the intent is to remain flexible based on cost and demand. The relative seniority gain to be had at Frontier could also be very good if the growth is successful. Of course, nothing is sure in the aviation industry until it happens.

All that said, what am I missing or what should I be considering when making the final decision?

 

[jtrain609]

Are you in the pool at JetBlue?

EDIT: I should add, the reason I'm asking this is because JetBlue does things differently than other airlines.

Unless you've accepted a class date it can take...a long time to get there, even if you're in the pool.

 

[ASpilot2be]

Living in base is huge. I dont see our ORD stuff going away. However any real growth is kind of on hold until we can secure more gates. @WaterRooster will have more info about that base.

 

[Dexter]

Go to Frontier, but keep your United, AA and SWA app updated.

 

[CRJDriver]

Go to Frontier, be based at home.

 

[CFIT99]

you can't go wrong with either, but living in base is better than cake

 

[mastermags]

Commuting to the NE from anywhere is awful, especially NYC.

 

[WaterRooster]

So ORD for F9 is the smallest base and also pretty stagnant. We are staying the current size we are till the construction on Terminal 5 is done is done in ‘21 at which point we are supposed to get 3-4 gates. It took me about 9 months to get a line and the difference between reserve and an line is substantial. I’m easily crediting 90+ with 15 days off a month. The two biggest things about this base is that

1. Denver commuters come here because it’s a shorter commute and doesn’t have the heavy red eye flying that LAS does. If we open a West coast base *cough* PHX *cough* expect to see a substantial shuffle happen.

2. Metro Chicago is 6 million. Add in the burbs, southern WI, Western IL, western Indiana and you are easily 10-11 Million people. If F9 left ORD they would not get back in. The population base is too great to leave. We also cover all the flying without too much issue and the company likes that.

Bottom Line: I tell guys all the time, commuting for a great job makes the job just “ok”. If you can live at home and do reserve on your couch, your QOL is SO much better. Just a thought. Also you mentioned relative seniority... I am 1 year in and “if” the growth happens as planned, I will be at 35-37% in the company by 2023. 3 year upgrades as well. So yes, they seniority could be really really good

 

[jtrain609]

Commuting to the NE from anywhere is awful, especially NYC.

The worst part about having to commute to New York has been commuting to LGA and then trying to get to JFK, or vise versa.

Otherwise I've done worse commutes.

 

[Kingairer]

That ORD F9 operation could disappear pretty quickly, so I wouldnt be looking at that if this is a long term career destination for you. Unless you have some deep heavy anchors, Id chose the better airline and consider moving.

 

[WaterRooster]

That ORD F9 operation could disappear pretty quickly, so I wouldnt be looking at that if this is a long term career destination for you. Unless you have some deep heavy anchors, Id chose the better airline and consider moving.

Same could be said for any base for any ULCC/LCC and even some Legacy airlines. So what’s your insider knowledge?

 

[Kingairer]

You said yourself, its the smallest base. F9 has a history of re-inventing itself or bailing on routes. I dont think the same could be said for Spirit at FLL, Jetblue in JFK/BOS, DL in ATL, etc etc. Those are well established bases. If you're breaking a tie on making a career decision between two airlines, ORD F9 is pretty thin. Is it going to be there in 10 years?

 

[WaterRooster]

You said yourself, its the smallest base. F9 has a history of re-inventing itself or bailing on routes. I dont think the same could be said for Spirit at FLL, Jetblue in JFK/BOS, DL in ATL, etc etc. Those are well established bases. If you're breaking a tie on making a career decision between two airlines, ORD F9 is pretty thin. Is it going to be there in 10 years?

I don’t totally disagree but, it’s not as cut any dry as you say. You basically told him to move to an airlines largest base because you can’t trust a base will be open. That was’t even what he asked. All ULCC/LCC bail on routes, but typically don’t bail on bases when they are making money. The bases you mention are huge bases for those airlines. Could JB lose LGB, NK lose ACY? Sure they could. No one could tell the future. You never take an airline on base alone, but I think at this point if he wants to stay in ORD it’s a good choice.

 

[Skåning]

As someone who’s about to get displaced, I’d suggest going to the better company. You never know what the future holds with mergers that could see your base closing. AS closed the VX base in JFK and later this year our LAX stuff is going away. A huge bummer!

 

[jynxyjoe]

Living in base? What on Earth is that?

 

[Kingairer]

I don’t totally disagree but, it’s not as cut any dry as you say. You basically told him to move to an airlines largest base because you can’t trust a base will be open. That was’t even what he asked. All ULCC/LCC bail on routes, but typically don’t bail on bases when they are making money. The bases you mention are huge bases for those airlines. Could JB lose LGB, NK lose ACY? Sure they could. No one could tell the future. You never take an airline on base alone, but I think at this point if he wants to stay in ORD it’s a good choice.

He's said that JB is superior in most every way. Im just saying go to the better airline and not base it on a small base. If the OP is going to be using either airline as a stepping stone, then maybe staying in ORD with F9 while trying to get on with United/SW is the way to go, otherwise i'd go to JB.

 

[WaterRooster]

He's said that JB is superior in most every way. Im just saying go to the better airline and not base it on a small base. If the OP is going to be using either airline as a stepping stone, then maybe staying in ORD with F9 while trying to get on with United/SW is the way to go, otherwise i'd go to JB.

Like I said, I don’t disagree totally but commuting even for a better job, can make that job not so much better. I’m happy for the OP though, having to choose is a great position to be in!

 

[Autothrust Blue]

NK lose ACY?

I think the current strategy with ACY is like Medicare-for-all-who-want-it: If you like it, you can keep it, but you can get out quickly!

 

[Luftwaffles]

Everyone, thank you for the replies.
I appreciate the insights and inputs on both options.

Some of you brought up stepping stones vs. career destinations. I definitely could see JetBlue as a career destination company whereas Frontier depends largely on how its growth plans work out (i.e. B6 is more solid whereas F9 is more of a gamble). Obviously there’s no way of knowing the latter, so JB is appealing to my risk aversion. That said, as many of you brought up, living in base is worth a lot. @WaterRooster, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain F9’s relationship with ORD and the likelihood of it staying vs. going away. Aside from ORD being its smallest base, it’s concerning that F9 is shrinking in DEN while UAL and SWA continue to grow there. I know F9 isn’t the same Denver-based airline since it was bought out by Indigo, but seeing how quickly they’re willing to shrink a base off of increasing airport fees, I’m wondering how ORD is going to last with Chicago’s heavy taxes and fees if they’re not even willing to fight to compete in their hometown. How firm are those new ORD gates after the renovation? Is it company rumor or is it laid out in Frontier’s growth plans?

I know this isn’t a leading reason to pick one airline over another, but B6 seems to end up in the crosshairs if analysts predicting a M&A. I’ve heard everything from UAL, to DAL, to SWA. Obviously it’s all speculation, but B6’s real estate in JFK/BOS and their fleet could be highly valuable for various reasons.

Finally, even though I’m living in the Chicago area, I wouldn’t be opposed to eventually moving. If I went to JB, I’d probably eventually move to a JB base like MCO/FLL 10+ years from now.

 

[WaterRooster]

Everyone, thank you for the replies.
I appreciate the insights and inputs on both options.

Some of you brought up stepping stones vs. career destinations. I definitely could see JetBlue as a career destination company whereas Frontier depends largely on how its growth plans work out (i.e. B6 is more solid whereas F9 is more of a gamble). Obviously there’s no way of knowing the latter, so JB is appealing to my risk aversion. That said, as many of you brought up, living in base is worth a lot. @WaterRooster, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain F9’s relationship with ORD and the likelihood of it staying vs. going away. Aside from ORD being its smallest base, it’s concerning that F9 is shrinking in DEN while UAL and SWA continue to grow there. I know F9 isn’t the same Denver-based airline since it was bought out by Indigo, but seeing how quickly they’re willing to shrink a base off of increasing airport fees, I’m wondering how ORD is going to last with Chicago’s heavy taxes and fees if they’re not even willing to fight to compete in their hometown. How firm are those new ORD gates after the renovation? Is it company rumor or is it laid out in Frontier’s growth plans?

I know this isn’t a leading reason to pick one airline over another, but B6 seems to end up in the crosshairs if analysts predicting a M&A. I’ve heard everything from UAL, to DAL, to SWA. Obviously it’s all speculation, but B6’s real estate in JFK/BOS and their fleet could be highly valuable for various reasons.

Finally, even though I’m living in the Chicago area, I wouldn’t be opposed to eventually moving. If I went to JB, I’d probably eventually move to a JB base like MCO/FLL 10+ years from now.

F9 used to be a DEN only airline, this means it’s whole structure was built with DEN in mind. As we grow and open more bases DEN will continue to shrink. It’s been stated from Management that the perfect base size is in the 100-120 pilots per side. ORD is at about 100, MCO, PHL, LAS and soon to be MIA will all be at 120. DEN is in the 220ish range. I guess the summary is expect DEN to keep to shrink as the operation transitions out to different areas that don’t need to connect to DEN anymore vs the airport fees driving them out. Not saying it isn’t a reason, but probably not as big as we would think.

ORD is limited because in the current T5, there are no solid gates. Because it’s International it’s all flex gates. We have 4-6 flex gates that we use. So when they add the additional 10 domestic gates the “plan” is 3-4 from people in the know as of now, “Plan” being the key word.

In the end, I’m comfortable hanging my hat in ORD for the time being. I wish I could predict the future, if I could I’d say we may not be F9 5 years from now. Realistically the only thing that I think would drive me out would be an ORD closure. Even a UA class date would take a lot of thinking on my end. “If” it happens the way it is planned the seniority I will have, flying a great plane, on routes I enjoy is hard to beat. I did reserve from my couch and I’m good with never having commuted.