JetBlue unprofessionalism on display

[t-cart]

WACO...in addition to what PCL said...there is another issue in Ttail jets with tail mounted engines call "rudder blanking". Under certain conitions of reverse thrust, the airflow around the tail is disrupted leaving you without any directional control if the nosewheel is not on the ground. This can lead to a runway excursion in the blink of an eye.

Also, if you tend to use reverse thrust, along with aero braking (hold the nose off)...and you have "bucket" type of reversers (the ones the open like clam shells)...there's a great chance that you will scrape the reversers shells on the runway.

But bottom line...in a transport jet...the most effective way to stop the airplane is the wheel brakes. Land early in the touchdown zone...get all wheels on the ground...and get on the brakes. It's a good formula to use.

(In single engine GA airplanes...I think aero braking is good, however. In these lighter airplanes it is very important that the wing is done flying when the nose wheel touches the ground...to ensure that it won't go flying again. A larger jet can still land at higher speeds without a tendency to bounce because of the spoilers. The spoilers are doing the same job that full backpressure accomplishes in flying smaller planes.)

Thanks for that explanation. I havent flown anything bigger than a King Air 200, but do have some time in single engine turbine taildraggers. When I first started flying them,one day a customer was commenting on how quickly it would get off the ground versus the old planes we had replaced. I told him to watch how short it could land and stop the next time in. I came in, and before the tailwheel was on the ground, I went into reverse. Took all the air off the tail. .....I looked about like that plane landing on the snow runway in the video section. Almost tore the thing up right there. Dont know if this is pertinent to the discussion, but I never did that again......Dangerous words in aviation= "Watch this"

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I think 5 miles in trail works pretty well. You can do that with the TCAS. At least, seems to work pretty well for me.

Five miles? That may work at 4am, but most major airports during peak times will space visual approaches at 2.5-3 miles from the marker inbound. If you're slowing early to get 5 miles, then controllers at airports like ATL and MSP will start screaming at you.

WACO...in addition to what PCL said...there is another issue in Ttail jets with tail mounted engines call "rudder blanking". Under certain conitions of reverse thrust, the airflow around the tail is disrupted leaving you without any directional control if the nosewheel is not on the ground. This can lead to a runway excursion in the blink of an eye.

Also, if you tend to use reverse thrust, along with aero braking (hold the nose off)...and you have "bucket" type of reversers (the ones the open like clam shells)...there's a great chance that you will scrape the reversers shells on the runway.

Did the -88 not have the reverse buckets linked to the ground shift mechanism? On the 717, you can't even get reverse thrust until the nosewheel touches down (another reason to get the nose down and not use aerobraking).

 

[WacoFan]

Thanks for that explanation. I havent flown anything bigger than a King Air 200, but do have some time in single engine turbine taildraggers. When I first started flying them,one day a customer was commenting on how quickly it would get off the ground versus the old planes we had replaced. I told him to watch how short it could land and stop the next time in. I came in, and before the tailwheel was on the ground, I went into reverse. Took all the air off the tail. .....I looked about like that plane landing on the snow runway in the video section. Almost tore the thing up right there. Dont know if this is pertinent to the discussion, but I never did that again......Dangerous words in aviation= "Watch this"

Thanks foringing this up T-Cart. I always wondered if reverse in an turbine taildragger would lead to as big, or bigger tendency to lead to a rollover than jumping on the brakes.

 

[moocowtex]

Did the -88 not have the reverse buckets linked to the ground shift mechanism? On the 717, you can't even get reverse thrust until the nosewheel touches down (another reason to get the nose down and not use aerobraking).

Nope. In the 88, you can wheelie all the way down the runway with the buckets out, a pretty rooster tail of sparks providing a show for the tower.

 

[t-cart]

Thanks foringing this up T-Cart. I always wondered if reverse in an turbine taildragger would lead to as big, or bigger tendency to lead to a rollover than jumping on the brakes.

Hey Waco, Not so much a rollover. What happens is, You take the airflow off of the rudder and therefore have no directional control. It will really get your attention. Now, If you did this and stood on the brakes, then yes, a rollover could quite possibly be in the near future.

 

[CaptBill]

I think 5 miles in trail works pretty well. You can do that with the TCAS. At least, seems to work pretty well for me....

The truth is Don is that you don't have the option to "choose" your spacing in most high tempo arrivals. You are put there by ATC and they expect you to use reasonable standards of professionalism to make it work for the guy ahead of you, the guy next to you on the parallel runway and the guy behind you. You have to do your part to make it all happen. It's when crews begin to think that they are the only piece of the puzzle and do as they choose that things get complicated and crazy. Despite the fact that you are not typically exposed to those situations, surely you can see where problems would arise with crews who don't see things in a bigger perspective.

In the end, my problem with your thread/post has more to do with the title of the thread and it's throwing a pilot group under the bus as "unprofessional". I simply think saying that is inaccurate, misleading, and in and of itself, unprofessional.

I simply find bashing a pilot group because one had to go around as....unprofessional.....

I have no problem with your assessment of my professionalism. I frequently screw things up, I get angry, I make light of situations I probably shouldn't, I take some things way too seriously, I call people idiots from time to time and I forget peoples names that I should remember. Almost every day I find myself wishing I would of done some things in my past differently. I am at times self-depreciating and realize that there are many things in my life that I would like to improve upon, but somehow haven't found the time or motivation to do so. The issue of implying that JetBlue as an organization, or their pilot group as a whole, as unprofessional was wrong on my part. I attempted to clarify in later posts where I stood, but essentially, what you say is correct - it was unprofessional and improper to initially begin the thread using the words I did. You are 100 percent justified in being disappointed in the thread title. Perhaps through my lack of judgment we can all learn not to post when we are angry, tired or not thinking clearly.

This concept of professionalism is a dynamic target that is always in need of tweaking and redefining. It is through forums like JC that facilitate respectful and productive discussions among peers, that we are able to move closer to becoming the person we would like to be. To that end, I have lots of work to do and appreciate those here that are helping me along.

Fly safe Don....

 

[granlistillo]

Classy response

 

[Velocipede]

I think 5 miles in trail works pretty well. You can do that with the TCAS. At least, seems to work pretty well for me.

Unfortunately, most of us don't have the luxury or training to do ATC's job using onboard equipment.

In the end, my problem with your thread/post has more to do with the title of the thread and it's throwing a pilot group under the bus as "unprofessional". I simply think saying that is inaccurate, misleading, and in and of itself, unprofessional.

I guess every forum has different standards. Some allow for contrary opinions. Even yours.

I have yet to go around for lack of in trail seperation in the left seat at Brown. You can hardly blame me, I fly maybe 200 hours a year...

Then your 16 hours a month flying boxes at off peak hours HARDLY qualifes yours as an expert opinion, does it?

I never claimed to be a superior airman. I simply find bashing a pilot group because one had to go around as....unprofessional.....

Of course you do. You do it all the time. Everywhere you post. And as usual, you're attitude drips superiority as you hold yourself to the the arbiter of professionalism. You really need to get over yourself, Don, you really do.

Well, just so happens the kid I took out for breakfast couldn't finish his pigs in a blanket.

:tmyk::tmi:

It's when crews begin to think that they are the only piece of the puzzle and do as they choose that things get complicated and crazy. Despite the fact that you are not typically exposed to those situations, surely you can see where problems would arise with crews who don't see things in a bigger perspective.

This concept of professionalism is a dynamic target that is always in need of tweaking and redefining.

Amen, Captain. And making judgmental pronouncments generally adds nothing to the conversation.

 

[JEP]

Amber gave this a timeout yesterday, but it has turned to the same nonsense.

This one is done.