B767Driver
New Member
I can tell you bad stories of aero braking in Tjets. Just say no...don't do it.
JetBlue unprofessionalism on display
- Thread starter CaptBill
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I can tell you bad stories of aero braking in Tjets. Just say no...don't do it.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
It wasn't a visual approach but please don't let facts stand in the way of your rebuke. Actually, you provide a great solution to many of us who routinely deal with spacing issues at airports like LAX, ORD, JFK, SFO, EWR, LGA, ATL etc. Perhaps from now on, based upon your wisdom and recommendation, we should all slow and configure 10 or 12 miles out to insure we do not rush a fellow aviator into prematurely clearing a runway. Exposing them to risk factors like brake dust or worse yet, excessive noise from using reverse thrust is well, just plain irresponsible on our parts. If we all strive to build ourselves holes giving eight, nine, or even ten miles behind the guy ahead of us, just think how many go-arounds we could all avoid. When approach or tower starts screaming, we will just tell them that one of our JC friends who is a captain for "Big Brown", and flies into places like ONT, SDF, BIF, RFD and the like, suggested it was our fault if we didn't take these pesky spacing matters into our own hands. Hopefully the boys in the tower will just politely mutter under their breaths, and not say anything negative over the radio that would question our procedures, tarnish our reputation or diminish our enlightened thinking.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
He never does.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Personally I've never witnessed JetBlue do any of the things mentioned, but I don't doubt that they occur. Shiet happens out there.
What I have trouble accepting is that it is some sort of SOP for them, or even just how it's done on the line. Maybe a JB pilot could add his $.02. I've never witnessed in my short career unprofessionalism in that sense, screwing with another airline during a critical phase of flight. It's different than silly "jabs" heard on the radio.
From the original post, had another pilot begun a conversation with me on an elevator regarding unprofessionalism at my airline, I'd be a little taken aback. If I was on the receiving end of that comment I might fire shots back, especially after a long day.
What I have trouble accepting is that it is some sort of SOP for them, or even just how it's done on the line. Maybe a JB pilot could add his $.02. I've never witnessed in my short career unprofessionalism in that sense, screwing with another airline during a critical phase of flight. It's different than silly "jabs" heard on the radio.
From the original post, had another pilot begun a conversation with me on an elevator regarding unprofessionalism at my airline, I'd be a little taken aback. If I was on the receiving end of that comment I might fire shots back, especially after a long day.
Hmm, have you got country ham?
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Had some guy try to cut us off on downwind once. Captain was extending, and the guys behind were told to follow us. The FO told the tower since we were so far downwind, they could cut the corner in front of us. Tower took a few seconds to think about it, then told them to just follow us. Damn Delta Skygods, who do they... uhh, never mind.
Actually, turns out the captains knew each other, and there was a rather embarassed new hire in the crew lounge when he was introduced to us.
Actually, turns out the captains knew each other, and there was a rather embarassed new hire in the crew lounge when he was introduced to us.
WacoFan
Bigly
Please do tell - it would help us understand. Velo mentioned scrapping the belly between the gear and tail, but I for one would love to hear more about why this is a horrible idea, just for my own knowledge. Thanks in advance.
Fins Up
Well-Known Member
I don't have the patience to read all six pages of this thread. I have been at JB for 2.5 years and have not personally seen or heard of guys using excessive runway unnecessarily. Sorry if it's happened to you, but it certainly ain't standard. As the AIM says, take first available turnoff unless directed otherwise by the tower.
I wouldn't do something like that to someone because I wouldn't want someone doing that to me.
I wouldn't do something like that to someone because I wouldn't want someone doing that to me.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Fins, somebody on here said a B6 guy told them they are encouraged to only use brakes, and not reversers. I don't know if this was on the 'bus or the 190. Is that true? I would really doubt it. Some of the RJs operators are in fact doing that, but I haven't heard of it for any of the bigger airframes.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Directional control can become an issue, also. As speed decreases, rudder effectiveness decreases, and you need nosewheel steering. Plus, aerodynamic braking simply isn't as effective as brakes and reverse thrust. You're increasing your landing distance and operating outside of the guidelines provided by the manufacturer. This completely invalidated your landing performance data. In short, you're starting to act like a test pilot in a transport category aircraft with paying passengers on board. Not good stuff.
Our 737 drivers use only idle reverse and brakes. We were doing it for a few months on the 717 on runways longer than 7500 feet, but we recently went back to full reverse after we found that brake wear was skyrocketing much more than anticipated.
Some airports in the EU more or less forbid you to use anything other than idle reverse except for special circumstances.
Non sequitur to the thread, but a little ancillary information.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Perhaps from now on, based upon your wisdom and recommendation, we should all slow and configure 10 or 12 miles out to insure we do not rush a fellow aviator"
I think 5 miles in trail works pretty well. You can do that with the TCAS. At least, seems to work pretty well for me.
In the end, my problem with your thread/post has more to do with the title of the thread and it's throwing a pilot group under the bus as "unprofessional". I simply think saying that is inaccurate, misleading, and in and of itself, unprofessional.
I have yet to go around for lack of in trail seperation in the left seat at Brown. You can hardly blame me, I fly maybe 200 hours a year, so less exposure. But you can bet that if I ever do, I won't come to Jetcareers and complain about the lack of professionalism of the pilot group of the "offending" party. That just seems silly to me.
"..one of our JC friends who is a captain for "Big Brown", and flies into places like ONT, SDF..."
I don't know. I always thought those places could get kinda busy. It's enough to get my attention. I never claimed to be a superior airman. I simply find bashing a pilot group because one had to go around as....unprofessional.....
I think 5 miles in trail works pretty well. You can do that with the TCAS. At least, seems to work pretty well for me.
In the end, my problem with your thread/post has more to do with the title of the thread and it's throwing a pilot group under the bus as "unprofessional". I simply think saying that is inaccurate, misleading, and in and of itself, unprofessional.
I have yet to go around for lack of in trail seperation in the left seat at Brown. You can hardly blame me, I fly maybe 200 hours a year, so less exposure. But you can bet that if I ever do, I won't come to Jetcareers and complain about the lack of professionalism of the pilot group of the "offending" party. That just seems silly to me.
"..one of our JC friends who is a captain for "Big Brown", and flies into places like ONT, SDF..."
I don't know. I always thought those places could get kinda busy. It's enough to get my attention. I never claimed to be a superior airman. I simply find bashing a pilot group because one had to go around as....unprofessional.....
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Hmm, have you got country ham?"
Well, just so happens the kid I took out for breakfast couldn't finish his pigs in a blanket. Me, hating to see good food go to waste, got a to go box. Anyone know if pigs in a blanket lasts overnight?
If I don't respond to this thread, you might have your answer.....
Well, just so happens the kid I took out for breakfast couldn't finish his pigs in a blanket. Me, hating to see good food go to waste, got a to go box. Anyone know if pigs in a blanket lasts overnight?
If I don't respond to this thread, you might have your answer.....
B767Driver
New Member
WACO...in addition to what PCL said...there is another issue in Ttail jets with tail mounted engines call "rudder blanking". Under certain conitions of reverse thrust, the airflow around the tail is disrupted leaving you without any directional control if the nosewheel is not on the ground. This can lead to a runway excursion in the blink of an eye.
Also, if you tend to use reverse thrust, along with aero braking (hold the nose off)...and you have "bucket" type of reversers (the ones the open like clam shells)...there's a great chance that you will scrape the reversers shells on the runway.
But bottom line...in a transport jet...the most effective way to stop the airplane is the wheel brakes. Land early in the touchdown zone...get all wheels on the ground...and get on the brakes. It's a good formula to use.
(In single engine GA airplanes...I think aero braking is good, however. In these lighter airplanes it is very important that the wing is done flying when the nose wheel touches the ground...to ensure that it won't go flying again. A larger jet can still land at higher speeds without a tendency to bounce because of the spoilers. The spoilers are doing the same job that full backpressure accomplishes in flying smaller planes.)
B767Driver
New Member
I've read through this post a little bit. I commute in to work with a lot a JetBlue guys and they are all very good guys. These could all be isolated incidents or there could be a pattern developed for a variety of reasons.
For fuel conservation, my company has suggested a reduced landing flap setting and low use of reverse thrust. This does not make a significant difference in landing performance but it is noticeable and requires a more aggressive braking action to make a taxiway turnoff more typical of the higher flap setting.
I like turning off the runway at a conservative speed. So if you combine all of the factors together...it could be a reason for the observed behavior.
(Or maybe they're just trying to screw the competitior behind them).
For fuel conservation, my company has suggested a reduced landing flap setting and low use of reverse thrust. This does not make a significant difference in landing performance but it is noticeable and requires a more aggressive braking action to make a taxiway turnoff more typical of the higher flap setting.
I like turning off the runway at a conservative speed. So if you combine all of the factors together...it could be a reason for the observed behavior.
(Or maybe they're just trying to screw the competitior behind them).
Not a transport catagory aircraft, but if you use the reversers in some Citations without the nose firmly planted it's possible to become airborne again. Airborne + reverse thrust = not good.
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