JetBlue Pilots vote against union

[WacoFan]

Bankruptcy judges actually cut the legacy rates down to JetBlue rates, which were far lower than SWA rates. That's the difference. In the case of Alaska, the arbitrator then averaged the rates of several legacy carriers that were listed in the agreement and cut their rates to that level. The target rate that the bankruptcy judges used was the non-union JetBlue rate, because that's what management argued would make themselves "competitive."

Prior to these bankruptcy paycuts, SWA was far behind all of the legacies. It wasn't even close. They didn't negotiate up; everyone else was forced back. And once again we see that SWA isn't really negotiating up; their new "TA in principal" only contains COLA adjustments, no B-fund, no international scope, etc... The only thing that SWAPA can really claim that they got was domestic scope, and that's not really a gain, because there's never been any indication that SWA was going to try domestic outsourcing in the first place.

Didn't get on APC until 2007, didn't get on here until shortly thereafter in 2007. I didn't know that the bankruptcy judges used JB as the non-union benchmark to lower the wages of the pilots until this post. That is a tangible reason for Velo's hate and I understand it much better. It does put some things into perspective for me. Thanks for posting. Still not sure if jumpseat wars are the most effective form of voicing displeasure, but I certainly understand the hostility from Velo's perspective better.

I am still not sure that a start-up airline can achieve an industry leading contract, particularly if you go to the contracts that were in place just prior to 9-11. The fact that after 8 years JB decides to continue on the non-union path is certainly their choice...but it also means that others who feel differently can exercise their choice as well (ie the jumpseat). If they had voted union, Velo said that they would be welcome in the jumpseat, kind of proving that he would let bygones be bygones and look forward.

Thanks for posting. Would also be interested in hearing counter views to PCLs's post if someone feels it inaccurate. The learning is fun.

 

[Velocipede]

Didn't get on APC until 2007, didn't get on here until shortly thereafter in 2007. I didn't know that the bankruptcy judges used JB as the non-union benchmark to lower the wages of the pilots until this post.

That's the great thing about JC. You can learn all sorts of stuff if you keep an open mind and a curious attitude. You also need to know history or you will be condemned to relive it.

That is a tangible reason for Velo's hate and I understand it much better. It does put some things into perspective for me. Thanks for posting. Still not sure if jumpseat wars are the most effective form of voicing displeasure, but I certainly understand the hostility from Velo's perspective better.

Hate is a pretty strong word. I don't hate those guys. I just won't enable them to continue undercutting Union contracts by helping them get to and from work. And I certainly feel no obligation to speak to any of them.

I am still not sure that a start-up airline can achieve an industry leading contract, particularly if you go to the contracts that were in place just prior to 9-11. The fact that after 8 years JB decides to continue on the non-union path is certainly their choice...but it also means that others who feel differently can exercise their choice as well (ie the jumpseat). If they had voted union, Velo said that they would be welcome in the jumpseat, kind of proving that he would let bygones be bygones and look forward.

NO ONE expects new entrants to have industry leading contracts. All I ask is for pilots to avoid working for companies, particularly non-Union ones who pay up to 30% less than average (i.e. Virgin/Allegiant).

The first time I was eligible to get out of the Navy, I didn't have enough fixed wing time to get hired by a major Union airline. The only interview I got was at AA and I either failed the physical (family history of diabetes) or just didn't have the fixed wing quals. Did I go interview at some scumbag non-Union outfit just to have a job? Nope. Pulled my letter and went back in for another 3.5 years.

Consequently, I lost about 3.5 years of seniority. I pay for that every single bid period. Even so, at least I can look at myself in the mirror and know I didn't prostitute myself.

 

[Fins Up]

We do, actually. Fins Up shows up every once in a while around here.

I've been out of touch for a while and my connectivity right now is just this blackberry so I haven't read all four pages of this thread.

There were emails going around among the folks from my inital training class. I was one of
two guys I know of who were (for a while) trying to convince folks to vote yes.
With the exception of three of us, everyone came from other 121 carriers.
There was almost zero support for JBPA within the class. For the most part,
the argument was that they were very displeased with their previous union experiences and
were not eager to go down that road at this time. (We didn't have any TWA or USAir
folks in the class.).

Of the captains I flew with, most had the same argument or thought JBPA was going to have weak to
medium support and thus not be a strong union. A week pilot union when
The economy is not in our favor was not a desired situation. I realize (hope anyway) that
the economy is not always going to b like this but that was the thinking by
a lot f folks.

I sent in my interest card many months ago because I wanted the union option to be
researched. I donated several times and spent lots of time on thr fence and on each side of it.
In the end I decided to give management "one more last chance" to make
things right and thus did not vote. Will it work? I wouldn't put money
on it. But I wanted to try. I won't be surprised to see another drive in a year.
I am really interested to see what improvements are made. I plan on volunteering for one of the
committees to try to help.

So if a captain from whatever airline I am trying to jumpseat on tells me
to take a hike, that's fine. It's his/her plane. My response will simply be,
"Thanks anyway and you and your fellow [insert airline] pilots are
still welcome to jumpseat with us anytime.

I'll have to check this for typos when I get back to my computer.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Didn't get on APC until 2007, didn't get on here until shortly thereafter in 2007. I didn't know that the bankruptcy judges used JB as the non-union benchmark to lower the wages of the pilots until this post. That is a tangible reason for Velo's hate and I understand it much better. It does put some things into perspective for me. Thanks for posting. Still not sure if jumpseat wars are the most effective form of voicing displeasure, but I certainly understand the hostility from Velo's perspective better.

I am still not sure that a start-up airline can achieve an industry leading contract, particularly if you go to the contracts that were in place just prior to 9-11. The fact that after 8 years JB decides to continue on the non-union path is certainly their choice...but it also means that others who feel differently can exercise their choice as well (ie the jumpseat). If they had voted union, Velo said that they would be welcome in the jumpseat, kind of proving that he would let bygones be bygones and look forward.

Thanks for posting. Would also be interested in hearing counter views to PCLs's post if someone feels it inaccurate. The learning is fun.

Sometimes I forget that most guys around here didn't get to see the heyday contracts of the late '90s, early '00s. For comparison sake, since most guys haven't seen these, this is what 737 payrates used to look like at the legacies before bankruptcy:

SWA - $200 (Current Rate)
DAL - $257
UAL - $225 (Airbus)
NWA - $212 (Airbus)

As you can see, even with the roughly 3% raise that the SWA guys are getting with this TA, they're still far behind what payrates used to be. That NWA payrate you see? That was negotiated in 1998, over a decade ago, and SWAPA still can't top it. Anyone that thinks SWAPA has done such a great job at negotiating "industry leading" rates needs to examine history a little bit more.

 

[Polar742]

The first time I was eligible to get out of the Navy, I didn't have enough fixed wing time to get hired by a major Union airline. The only interview I got was at AA and I either failed the physical (family history of diabetes) or just didn't have the fixed wing quals. Did I go interview at some scumbag non-Union outfit just to have a job? Nope. Pulled my letter and went back in for another 3.5 years.

Consequently, I lost about 3.5 years of seniority. I pay for that every single bid period. Even so, at least I can look at myself in the mirror and know I didn't prostitute myself.

Makes it real easy to stand your ground when you didn't sacrifice anything. You retained a good paying job with great benefits until the confluence of luck, timing and preperation met.

Telling someone who is in danger of losing their house and ruin their personal life is dumb if that is the only job they can get. If that person has a chance at an equitable stream of income, as you did, I can understand encouraging someone not to take the job.

Before you twist my thoughts, words or actions, I DO NOT ever advocate crossing a picketline or working for a whipsaw (GoJet/Freedom start up).

 

[Velocipede]

And it can't be emphasized enough that the court imposed narrowbody pay rates at AAA and UAL are B6 pay rates that were in effect at the time.

Why people can't understand that linkage is beyond me.

 

[Velocipede]

Before you twist my thoughts, words or actions, I DO NOT ever advocate crossing a picketline or working for a whipsaw (GoJet/Freedom start up).

But you ARE advocating replacing legacy wage rate jobs with regional pay jobs.

That is essentially whipsawing, my friend.

 

[Polar742]

But you ARE advocating replacing legacy wage rate jobs with regional pay jobs.

That is essentially whipsawing, my friend.

I never said that. EVER.

If you ever read what I write, the point is this:

I am advocating that if you fly equipment that the legacies are, you should have equitable pay and work rules.

Now, because that might take a contract cycle and a strike, so be it. That's the law and how it works.

You can pout, try to put words in my mouth, or whatever you feel necessary.

If Alaska has never led in pay and workrules, you are throwing stones in a glass house. If Alaska never raised the bar, then they could, in effect, be indicted at the very least, in capping the bar.

You come on here in a position to provide guidance and mentorship. While many of your points are valid, you come across like a jerk and turn many particpants (and I'll SWAG lurkers too) off to your thoughts.

 

[MusketeerMan]

Thank you, PCL.

I think Andy's just feeling a little (or a lot) guilty that he and RAH have basicly put 300 good paying Midwest jobs out on the street. He thinks that by skewering Alaska he's making me feel bad.

Au contraire. You and I know full well the effect of $96 an hour Captains displacing $150 an hour Captains. It pressures ALL managers to match in order to "be competitive."

That's why it is disgusting to see non-Union pilots like Virgin who are flying A320s for RAH wages ask Union pilots for access to Union negotiated privileges. Its even more disgusting to witness the Union pilots who allow them that access.

It is utterly amazing to me how many pilots refuse to participate in the promotion of their profession AND how many actively work to depress pilot wages/benefits by working for substandard pay rates.

Sorry chief...wrong once again. It's a terrible feeling knowing that there are very senior guys on the street..heck, it's terrible that anybody is on the street. Feeling guilty for the Midwest mess? No. If I had anything to do with it, there would definitely be guilt associated with it. You're trolling again and it continues to crack me up. Don't change the subject.

You've got work to do...you better make sure you get a contract that surpasses SWA in their work rules and especially in pay. You're undercutting those guys and others and you need to fix it. Isn't that how it goes...?? :buck: Ta ta my friend..

 

[Boris Badenov]

Trying to have a nuanced conversation with a union fanatic is totally fruitless. If you don't toe the party line on every single conceivable issue, you're a gutless union-busting coward and too evil to live. Unions are gangs, formed for the same purpose and operated in the same way. I happen to think that they're preferable to the alternative, but they're in no way savory, and the hypocrisy of the "I got mine, now you suffer for my paycheck" crowd is enough to make me gag.

Oh, and I suppose that I'm obligated to add that I would never cross a picket line under any circumstances, and would only work for an alter-ego if unemployment had run out and it were that or starve. One really oughtn't need to append that to the end of every post on the subject, but I'm familiar with the chilling effect.

 

[Velocipede]

So, Polar, let me get this straight. Its OK for RAH to undercut Midwest as long as they don't fly narrowbody equipement?

Wow, just wow.

And for you Andy...

It was YOUR Company that put 300 legacy pilots on the street by bidding for Midwest's flying because YOUR pay scale is 62% of what Midwest pilots earn. YOUR MEC, and by extension, YOU and YOUR pilot buddies didn't immediately attempt to negotiate a sideletter that prevented YOU from accomplishing flying that YOU knew was outsourced due to a labor disagreement.

YOU convinced YOURSELF that the outsourcing was OK because YOU and a couple other pilots showed up on the informational picket line to "support" the MEH pilots. In the meantime YOU, YOUR MEC and YOUR pilots went right ahead and took over the jobs of 300 pilots at 61% of their wages, thus enabling YOUR Company to undercut MEH pilots.

Thank you for YOUR support.

 

[mrivc211]

A lot of you guys talk smack on velo, he may not be nice about it, but he's right. Until pilots decide to stand shoulder to shoulder the slide will continue.

 

[ppragman]

I'm bored with this.

 

[Malko]

A lot of you guys talk smack on velo, he may not be nice about it, but he's right. Until pilots decide to stand shoulder to shoulder

I am quite sure he has the experience and nobody doubts that. The problem is in the delivery. If the delivery shuts somebody off, they will never hear the message.

 

[falconvalley]

Velo is speaking the truth. I don't think anyone is arguing it. The arbitration DID in fact result in better payscales being minimized to the less desired payscales. I'm pretty sure we all can agree on that. Where the sides differ is whether the minimization was necessary and who's responsible for it.

An arbitrator is actually going to look around and see how others compare. The don't just say "OK, $90 dollars an hour looks good for a 20 year captain, let's go with that." They look at the financial health of the companies that are paying that rate and use it as a justification.

Instead of arguing who's the problem, you need to ask- well, are concessions necessary and how much should one concede? It is way easier to use a model that works, than to come up with a whole new model. That's what you get with failing business in a market like ours.

So, you can see why it's really easy to point fingers and say well, Notasgood Airlines was paying their pilots way below the "going rate" so they are at fault for existing in the first place. Pilots at Notasgood Airlines should have strived for better and gone to TheBest Airlines instead of contributing to lowering the bar, so they don't get on my jumpseat.

The problem with that way of thinking is it doesn't solve a bigger problem. We have an open market. Notsogood Airlines came into the market to compete and they set the payscales with their pilot group. They are currently the best working model. TheBest Airlines has a failing model for a reason and something needs to be done. In this market we can't just make Notsogood Airlines and their pilot group go away and you can't expect everybody to pay the same. We wouldn't have a free market anymore and we'd have Regulation. So, instead of Velo arguing about the jumpseat, we'd have everything decided and set for the airlines by the government. It was done at one time and it certainly was a different market. BUT, we DID pay for it. We can't have one thing without the other. We CAN'T have 90's legacy pay without the exposure to the possibility of failure and concessions. There's a reason those less-than-desirable payscales exist at those companies.

Of course, if Velo can prove that a business can float with those payscales in a cyclic, open market, than I'll just shut up about it.

 

[spbrian]

I have personally been curious, please chime in...

How much is enough???? Be honest with yourself when answering this please...

 

[Baronman]

I have personally been curious, please chime in...

How much is enough???? Be honest with yourself when answering this please...

How much is enough what? How much would I expect to make as a JBlue Pilot? As a widebody captain? Regional Jet Captain?

I'll tell you what. The answer to that question changes significantly as the years go by. When I was a new hire my answer would have been significantly different than my answer is now. And presumably my answer if and when I become a pilot for a larger carrier would be different than my answer now as a regional pilot.

You gain experience, you value your time to a greater degree and you feel your experience is worth more as you reflect upon it. I can look back at 2008 and thumb through my logbook. Think of the dozens of ground stops, delays, mechanicals, crew situations, hurricanes, snow storms, CAT 2 approaches, missed approaches, windshears. All of the 4:30am wake up calls, deicing, dipping the tanks for fuel readings, logbook discrepencies, ASAP reports....Deadheads down to Houston, PCs....Feds riding along....All of the deviations around storms, picking our way through weather, trying to beat weather, diverting because gulf coast weather in the summer stinks.

So I think back on all these things, I'm thankful I lucked out a couple of times. A couple times I got bit in the butt on little things, but overall I was satisfied with the level of safety and service my crews and I provided this year. And what do I have to show for all of this? Take home pay somewhere in the 50k-60k range. I still don't make enough money to move into a home in the NY suburbs or to drive a new car and save.

So...how much is enough?.....I'll tell you when I feel adequately compensated, I'm not there yet.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I don't feel I'm making enough. However, at the same time I feel very fortunate for what I do make. It is a lot more than many of my friends.

If it wasn't for my poor financial decision making, I'd probably be living very comfortably right now. Ahh 20/20 hindsight.

 

[darrenf]

I am quite sure he has the experience and nobody doubts that. The problem is in the delivery. If the delivery shuts somebody off, they will never hear the message.

:yeahthat:

I can't hear the message due to all the screaming.

 

[SmoothLanderJ]

Sometimes I forget that most guys around here didn't get to see the heyday contracts of the late '90s, early '00s. For comparison sake, since most guys haven't seen these, this is what 737 payrates used to look like at the legacies before bankruptcy:

SWA - $200 (Current Rate)
DAL - $257
UAL - $225 (Airbus)
NWA - $212 (Airbus)

As you can see, even with the roughly 3% raise that the SWA guys are getting with this TA, they're still far behind what payrates used to be. That NWA payrate you see? That was negotiated in 1998, over a decade ago, and SWAPA still can't top it. Anyone that thinks SWAPA has done such a great job at negotiating "industry leading" rates needs to examine history a little bit more.

I have to admitt, this is the 1st time that I've seen these past rates and um....WOW. Great points and debate here...........

How much is enough what? How much would I expect to make as a JBlue Pilot? As a widebody captain? Regional Jet Captain?

I'll tell you what. The answer to that question changes significantly as the years go by. When I was a new hire my answer would have been significantly different than my answer is now. And presumably my answer if and when I become a pilot for a larger carrier would be different than my answer now as a regional pilot.

You gain experience, you value your time to a greater degree and you feel your experience is worth more as you reflect upon it. I can look back at 2008 and thumb through my logbook. Think of the dozens of ground stops, delays, mechanicals, crew situations, hurricanes, snow storms, CAT 2 approaches, missed approaches, windshears. All of the 4:30am wake up calls, deicing, dipping the tanks for fuel readings, logbook discrepencies, ASAP reports....Deadheads down to Houston, PCs....Feds riding along....All of the deviations around storms, picking our way through weather, trying to beat weather, diverting because gulf coast weather in the summer stinks.

So I think back on all these things, I'm thankful I lucked out a couple of times. A couple times I got bit in the butt on little things, but overall I was satisfied with the level of safety and service my crews and I provided this year. And what do I have to show for all of this? Take home pay somewhere in the 50k-60k range. I still don't make enough money to move into a home in the NY suburbs or to drive a new car and save.

So...how much is enough?.....I'll tell you when I feel adequately compensated, I'm not there yet.

Well said.....