JetBlue Pilots vote against union

skydog said:
The thing that amuses me is the general belief that the presence of a union will make things "better." They're're gonna get better pay, better schedules, better crew meals, better whatever. It's gonna get better. Why? Nothing else has changed. The company's business model hasn't changed. The economics of the industry haven't changed. Customers aren't suddenly paying more for tickets. The regionals' mainline partners aren't suddenly paying more to have flights operated. Nothing else has changed. in fact, with unionization, the airline just got more expensive to operate, yet it is assumed that all of a sudden there is money to pay for all these improvements.
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A union provides a say in your future. A negotiating tool with mgmt, if you will. To be non-union provides NO legally-binding communications.

That is what the JB pilots fail to realize at the present time. Perhaps, in another year, after the mgmt kool-aid is dried up, they will realize their mistake and have another go at representation.

You know, being unionized doesn't automatically mean you're out to ruin the company. What it DOES MEAN, however, is that you want to actively participate in how YOUR future (and that of your peers) is developed.
 
skydog said:
The thing that amuses me is the general belief that the presence of a union will make things "better." They're're gonna get better pay, better schedules, better crew meals, better whatever. It's gonna get better. Why? Nothing else has changed. The company's business model hasn't changed. The economics of the industry haven't changed. Customers aren't suddenly paying more for tickets. The regionals' mainline partners aren't suddenly paying more to have flights operated. Nothing else has changed. in fact, with unionization, the airline just got more expensive to operate, yet it is assumed that all of a sudden there is money to pay for all these improvements.
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I fear what my airline would be like without a union. Heck, the company already tries to get an end around most of the union stuff as it is, all in the name of saving a buck or two. Take away the better pay and work rules, and you're right. The ticket prices don't go DOWN and the mainline partners don't start paying LESS. See, it's a two way street. The only thing that happens is that the airline mis-managers that have in less than a year and a half nearly driven this company into debt they MAY be able to crawl away from get bigger bonuses.
 
It's ok. My "johnson" is waaaay bigger'n Train's or Merit's! :)
 
Hacker15e said:
How did I get back in to 3rd grade? All this time I've thought I was on a professional pilot forum.
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Don't worry about me and Justin, he's just trolling the forums. He hasn't made a serious post here since he left Express and went back to the corporate world, and I haven't given him a serious response in that period of time.

All in good fun I'm sure.
 
jtrain609 said:
Don't worry about me and Justin, he's just trolling the forums. He hasn't made a serious post here since he left Express and went back to the corporate world, and I haven't given him a serious response in that period of time.

All in good fun I'm sure.
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I find it funny that you are trolling forums when you say something negative about unions but not the other way around.
 
jhugz said:
I find it funny that you are trolling forums when you say something negative about unions but not the other way around.
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The person Jtrain is talking about didn't say a thing about unions.
 
seagull said:
That is condescending and uncalled for. 5 whole years as a "121 pilot" makes someone qualified to give an opinion? Sorry, don't buy it. Do those reading this thread really think that many (probably most) of the Jetblue pilots did work for union carriers before? It's been my experience that those that were with union carriers in a previous life, that went out of biz or similar, are usually the most rabid anti-union folks on the property. The ex-military are usually fairly indifferent absent a major event one way or the other. Also, equating the experience at a regional hardly gives a lot of perspective at to what life is like a a true (not just DOT definition) major or legacy carrier.

The fact that they only had 33% voting for any representation says a lot. It really wasn't even close. They need to decide their own future. The last thing you want is for there to have been 24% for their independent, another 26% for ALPA, so you get ALPA representation with only 26% of the pilots wanting it, and a lame duck union. That's worse than no representation at all. BTDT. The Jetblue pilots made their own decision.
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So having 20 years in makes you qual'd? Times have changed a lot since the regionals of the 80's. Going from Ord-yyc-sfo is a common route. The only difference between you and us is the size of the aircraft and pay. We face the same issues as all the pilots at the majors. I've been a ramper, I've been a union organizer. I can tell you that once I got on as a line pilot and spent some time there my eyes just started to open. And they continue too. I can tell you also after doing the carpet dance more than once for an issue that wasn't my fault, a union is most definetely needed at all airlines. Which union? That's for the pilots to decide.
 
He likes flowers, Merit. Just because he got married doesn't necessarily mean that he stopped thinking about you.





















Ha! :) :sarcasm:
 
Hey, bro just makes retarded posts on here. He hasn't called or texted in months! I don't know why he just up and left me when I got hitched, but I feel a little out in the cold because of it.
 
BobDDuck said:
Only because everybody else dropped their rates down to SWA, NOT because Southwest raised their rates above the rest of the industry.
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Not to nitpick...but they didn't drop their rates "down to SWA"...a 10 year CA at SWA makes $50 MORE/hour than an Alaska 10 year CA...
 
MusketeerMan said:
Not to nitpick...but they didn't drop their rates "down to SWA"...a 10 year CA at SWA makes $50 MORE/hour than an Alaska 10 year CA...
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Bankruptcy judges actually cut the legacy rates down to JetBlue rates, which were far lower than SWA rates. That's the difference. In the case of Alaska, the arbitrator then averaged the rates of several legacy carriers that were listed in the agreement and cut their rates to that level. The target rate that the bankruptcy judges used was the non-union JetBlue rate, because that's what management argued would make themselves "competitive."

Prior to these bankruptcy paycuts, SWA was far behind all of the legacies. It wasn't even close. They didn't negotiate up; everyone else was forced back. And once again we see that SWA isn't really negotiating up; their new "TA in principal" only contains COLA adjustments, no B-fund, no international scope, etc... The only thing that SWAPA can really claim that they got was domestic scope, and that's not really a gain, because there's never been any indication that SWA was going to try domestic outsourcing in the first place.
 
PCL_128 said:
Bankruptcy judges actually cut the legacy rates down to JetBlue rates, which were far lower than SWA rates. That's the difference. In the case of Alaska, the arbitrator then averaged the rates of several legacy carriers that were listed in the agreement and cut their rates to that level. The target rate that the bankruptcy judges used was the non-union JetBlue rate, because that's what management argued would make themselves "competitive."
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Thank you, PCL.

I think Andy's just feeling a little (or a lot) guilty that he and RAH have basicly put 300 good paying Midwest jobs out on the street. He thinks that by skewering Alaska he's making me feel bad.

Au contraire. You and I know full well the effect of $96 an hour Captains displacing $150 an hour Captains. It pressures ALL managers to match in order to "be competitive."

That's why it is disgusting to see non-Union pilots like Virgin who are flying A320s for RAH wages ask Union pilots for access to Union negotiated privileges. Its even more disgusting to witness the Union pilots who allow them that access.

It is utterly amazing to me how many pilots refuse to participate in the promotion of their profession AND how many actively work to depress pilot wages/benefits by working for substandard pay rates.
 
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