Jet Time as a Minimum..

[RRPower]

To the guys hating on the college degree...

I think where you go to school and what you do has a lot to do with your opinions on it. The biggest thing I believe it shows though is that you're teachable in a formal environment which is exactly where you'll be if you get hired by many of the 121 operators or end up at Flight Safety I would imagine (I've never done a Flight Safety course). The piece of paper you get from a 4 year school just shows you can deal with a bunch of BS, maybe learn a thing or two, and stay committed to it. I have met some incredibly stupid people though that have the piece of paper.

I totally agree with this. Of all the guys/gals I've flown with the ones that got aviation degrees think it was a waste of their time and money. I got my degree in political science with a minor in criminal justice. I can go ahead and tell you that polisci is no joke. It was extremely tough...ask anyone who has done it. It also makes me appreciate it that much more. Again, say what you want but I am not going to downplay my college for anything. I didn't appreciate it then but I really do now and push everyone I know to go to college. College isn't just about what you can go to the library and learn or look up on the Internet. It is far more than that and someone who didn't go to college will never understand that.

 

[Trip7]

As someone who flew the ATR then the CRJ series, I can confidently say that flying the jet requires a higher level of SA, planning and decision making. ASA had several ATR capts that never made the transition to the left seat of the RJ because they lacked the skillset to be Captain on the CRJ even though they were seasoned Captains on he ATR. In all cases it had nothing to do with physically flying the plane, but with their mental ability to keep up with the automation and speed of the plane. In the ATR you never had an issue with being at 11,000ft 320knts, clean as a whistle, 20 miles out and cleared for the straight in visual 19

I can completely understand why someone would want jet time.

With that said, I believe if you hired a sharp pilot he would be able to fly a jet regardless of background. Now the question is, how does an employer determine a prospective employee is sharp regardless of experience?

 

[RightSeatGirl]

Get out of here! You're one of those rich airline pilots!

LOL, I know, right!

 

[mshunter]

I see a ton of comments in this thread from guys who have zero room to speak. I am not some high time jet jock, but I have enough to know that flying something that doesn't have props is NOTHING like flying something with props. The majority of my jet time is in Lears, with a sprinkling of straight wing Citation time thrown in. Comming off of a runway, on a departure that has a few restrictions requires some planning and forethought. Throw into that ATC barking a few simple instructions at you, and now your head is moving around, and you are trying to keep up with the airplane, comply with new instructions, and still meet crossing restrictions, while not blowing through 250kts. I'm not saying that it's real hard, but it can be a challange, and mistakes are easy to make.

I specifically remember comming off of OAK one day, after an early call and being tired. We almost started a turn on the DP for lost comms and screwed up all of SFO's departures. Luckily, the CA and I both scratched our heads for a second, looked back at the DP and realized our mistake before we were chastised. I can see why some companies want jet time. It is different. Thing happen faster. It took 100 hours to get my head up to speed. It took me another 100 hours to get my hands up to speed, and another 100 hours to get my head and my hands working at that speed. Then it took another 100 hours to get my mouth to keep up with my heads and my hands. And that was flying with people who had thousands more hours than I.

 

[dustoff17]

Oh I dunno...being able to do nifty things like say...eat!

Eating is totally over-rated anyway. Besides, the food at the airports is both good for you and cheap!

And since you seem to be in a position where $2500 ain't no thing then hows about you shoot me a check!

$2,500 is still $2,500 no matter what job you hold. As stated before, "you fly for the airlines", right? I know that managing money is tough at all levels but my point was that $2,500 now can yield a much larger return in the future if it opens the right doors for you.
AND, as a token of good faith, I will shoot you a check but I'll meet you half way. Are you going to CALL or are you going to FOLD? PM sent.

Dude, seriously! I work for a turbo-prop REG ION AL! $2500 may as well be $25,000! Hell my bills have bills...

Did you call me "Dude"?

 

[Roger Roger]

I totally agree with this. Of all the guys/gals I've flown with the ones that got aviation degrees think it was a waste of their time and money. I got my degree in political science with a minor in criminal justice. I can go ahead and tell you that polisci is no joke. It was extremely tough...ask anyone who has done it. It also makes me appreciate it that much more. Again, say what you want but I am not going to downplay my college for anything. I didn't appreciate it then but I really do now and push everyone I know to go to college. College isn't just about what you can go to the library and learn or look up on the Internet. It is far more than that and someone who didn't go to college will never understand that.

I wouldn't say that my aviation degree was a waste of time. In 4 years, I checked the following boxes:
Commercial single/ multi/ instrument
Instructor single/ multi/ instrument
1 year part time CFI experience
A&P
Bachelors degree
Beginnings of a solid aviation network

 

[RightSeatGirl]

Eating is totally over-rated anyway. Besides, the food at the airports is both good for you and cheap!



$2,500 is still $2,500 no matter what job you hold. As stated before, "you fly for the airlines", right? I know that managing money is tough at all levels but my point was that $2,500 now can yield a much larger return in the future if it opens the right doors for you.
AND, as a token of good faith, I will shoot you a check but I'll meet you half way. Are you going to CALL or are you going to FOLD? PM sent.



Did you call me "Dude"?

Errrr...do whut? I didn't get a PM...and yeah I called you dude...I'm a hippy at heart!

 

[Boris Badenov]

My experience is roughly congruent with mshunter's. When I first jumped in a jet, I had thousands of hours of turboprop PIC, I was in the right seat, and I was flying with C/As that had a lot of time in the plane. Nevertheless, I was absolutely waterskiing for the first 50-100 hours. There are things about flying a jet that are a LOT easier than flying a turboprop. Weather is generally not a problem and unless you're coming out of Aspen or something, you lose one and basically "oh well". But there are things that are harder, too, or at least require more planning. ms mentioned departures and the speed with which things happen...definitely those. Also, stopping the thing can be an issue in a way it almost never is with a turboprop. High altitude aerodynamics, energy management, etc etc. It's not that it's more difficult or "requires a certain caliber of aviator"...I've met people who do fine in a jet who would probably poop their pampers in 99 or MU-2 in ice or thunderstorms. But it is different.

To me the upshot is when people are hiring, they want someone whose experience has most directly prepared them for the job. Of course someone could come out of a 227 or even a 99 and be a totally competent 737 pilot. But why hire one of them when there's a competent RJ pilot looking for a job?

To belabor my personal example: I am 100% certain that I would be a poop-hot 747 pilot. Breeze through training, fly it like I was born to it, be employ of the month 12 months running. But for the guy sorting through resumes (or the computer collating point values) my time as Admiral of the 16,300 lb Beatchjet just is not going to score as high as someone who has Heavy time. This isn't perverse or a vendetta against me. It's just the way things work. Getting frustrated about it does me no good, so instead I try to enjoy what I do, trick some people in to liking me, and hope for the best. I am not anywhere near important enough for the World to have an opinion about me, let alone Have It In For Me Unjustly.

 

[gne in prog]

I could get jet time easy if I wanted to take a $15k 1st year pay hit and go to another regional...But I suppose if my short half a decade in this biz has taught me anything it's all about...



QOL Baby!

Seems short sighted.

 

[RightSeatGirl]

LOL, Boris kills me..No one thinks it's a personal thing..It's just talkin and griping. It's the conundrum of how the hell do I get experience if no one will give me experience so I can use that experience to show someone looking for experience that I actually am experienced in that experience!

 

[RightSeatGirl]

Seems short sighted.

Short what? You guys that seem to have money trees growing in your back yards are killin me..Besides..I am presently working for my first AND last regional airline... I'll go back to truckin before I go there...It's either up or out for me..How is choosing not to go sideways with a significantly shorter paycheck short sided?

And on the topic, you guys saying oh noez....da jets is soooooooo fast! Yet many nOObs with wet commercials were doing it just fine back in 2007. Sorry, but this argument does not hold water when kids that had barely 300 hours jumped into RJ's and kept their jobs and most still have them but lil ole me with about 4000 tt in propjets will be hanging on to the yoke for dear life?

 

[gne in prog]

LOL, Boris kills me..No one thinks it's a personal thing..It's just talkin and griping. It's the conundrum of how the hell do I get experience if no one will give me experience so I can use that experience to show someone looking for experience that I actually am experienced in that experience!

At least that never ends.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Honestly, the way I got jet experience was taking a step backwards in pay and QOL. It wasn't a huge step backwards (well, the pay wasn't, anyway), and I didn't really have a choice because it was early 2009 and NO ONE was hiring, but in retrospect I'm glad it worked out that way or I'd probably still be the world's highest time commercial pilot.

You (RSG) posted in the TMG thread that you'd throw in an app...with all the provisos and warnings mentioned in that thread, the place isn't all that different from where I got my jet time (well, we could drink on the road and got paid for our training days). Maybe that's the right path for you, can't say.

 

[RightSeatGirl]

Yeah but just like I said in that thread....It can't be worse than working for Uncle Doug's "red headed" step child. And I've also read the pay for 1st year is a bit more than what I make.

Besides..No ATP, no Jet, no college..Just 40 plus years of life experience and on my second career..They won't call me anyway..lol. I probably don't qualify for the "you don't qualify" email..lol.

 

[murphfly]

Short what? You guys that seem to have money trees growing in your back yards are killin me..Besides..I am presently working for my first AND last regional airline... I'll go back to truckin before I go there...It's either up or out for me..How is choosing not to go sideways with a significantly shorter paycheck short sided?

Financial priorities.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Well, to borrow a phrase from Dough, "network, network, whatever!" (did I get that right?) I got that job from a guy here on JC who inexplicably thought I would be a "good addition". Boy did I prove him wrong!

 

[///AMG]

You seem like a cool chick RSG, who just wants a shot at the big metal. I'm sure if you perservere, it will be yours. Maybe we will one day be FO's together, and then we can both drink a beer over this silliness. It is what it is....

 

[RightSeatGirl]

Financial priorities.

Alright! **rolls up sleeves**..Let's just STOP right there boys...None of you..and I mean NONE of you have any idea what my life is like or what my responsibilities are. And NONE of you have any ounce of justification to make statements to me about what I should or should not prioritize insofar as my finances capiche?

Well, to borrow a phrase from Dough, "network, network, whatever!" (did I get that right?) I got that job from a guy here on JC who inexplicably thought I would be a "good addition". Boy did I prove him wrong!

Now that is good advice...And something I can afford!

You seem like a cool chick RSG, who just wants a shot at the big metal. I'm sure if you perservere, it will be yours. Maybe we will one day be FO's together, and then we can both drink a beer over this silliness. It is what it is....

10-4! But honestly I could care less what I fly or how fast it goes..I just want a good quality of life and to be paid a living wage commensurate with my responsibilities and stress level. It just so happens that most (not all, but most) jobs that go there are in the Jet world. Really, a good corporate gig is always what I wanted. Big jumbos never interested me. And I really want out of the airlines. I started flying a little corporate and loved it. Came to the regionals to increase my hours faster..rookie move there!

 

[mshunter]

LOL, Boris kills me..No one thinks it's a personal thing..It's just talkin and griping. It's the conundrum of how the hell do I get experience if no one will give me experience so I can use that experience to show someone looking for experience that I actually am experienced in that experience!

I understand your gripe. But honestly, I took a step back from flying JETZ! I was right seat in a Lear31 for a short time, then in a Lear55, and now I am going of to fly something with props again. It's all about perspective I guess. What makes you happy. But, if you really want that jet time, figure out a way. I can't remember what you are doing right now (IIRC, you're right seat in something sans props???), but sell yourself when you get that interview. And you don't need luck, just don't [deleted] up.

This is aviation. 90% of what we do or why we do, or why did it do that or why do they have that doesn't make sense. Just sit back and enjoy it, or it'll eat you alive.

Edit to add: Just saw your post a few up. I am on the same boat as you. Nearly mid life, second career, etc. Don't worry about it. Your time will come, and if it doesn't, so friggen what. Did you have fun on the way?

 

[///AMG]

10-4! But honestly I could care less what I fly or how fast it goes..I just want a good quality of life and to be paid a living wage commensurate with my responsibilities and stress level. It just so happens that most (not all, but most) jobs that go there are in the Jet world. Really, a good corporate gig is always what I wanted. Big jumbos never interested me. And I really want out of the airlines. I started flying a little corporate and loved it. Came to the regionals to increase my hours faster..rookie move there!

Yeah rog, I guess I wasn't specifically talking about BIG jets. I did say FO at a major though didn't I? Corporate jet dude in Europe would be just fine with me though. I hear you on QOL, and I cringe for friends from my pre-military civilian flying days that are now just barely making enough, 11 years later, to feed their families more than ramen and • Walmart ready serve meals. It shouldn't be that way, regardless of background.