Jet Blue blames WX, pilot rest rules for system meltdown

So I should be required to go to the doctor to get a note every time I get a cold? You know it's illegal to use Afrin and then go flying, right? You can only use it as an emergency measure if you get blockage on the descent, and they you're grounded until the congestion clears up. So flying with a cold is a no-no. It's absurd to think that a pilot should go to the doctor to get a note every time he gets the sniffles, just to satisfy some manager who wants to treat his employees like children (even though he entrusts them with $100 million airplanes).
 
BUT my point is that you've got to draw the boundaries so people know where the limits are.

No, you don't! Again, my airline has no policy, and is prohibited by contract from creating one. They can't even ask for a doctor's note. Has sick use increased since that contract was signed? Nope. Not one bit. Abusers will abuse, and everyone else (the 99%) will not. You absorb the cost of abusers as a cost of doing business and move on. Only control freak a-holes feel a need to create policies for the 1%.
 
Huh? WTF Good people do the right thing when no body is looking. I work for a POS company but when I go to work I do my job to the fullest and the best that I can because that is the kind of person I am. People know what is right and wrong.

There's a lot of study in this topic, particularly after WWII. How could good people send a whole race of people to a gas chamber? Anyway, social norms drift, particularly without boundaries.
 
No, you don't! Again, my airline has no policy, and is prohibited by contract from creating one. They can't even ask for a doctor's note. Has sick use increased since that contract was signed? Nope. Not one bit. Abusers will abuse, and everyone else (the 99%) will not. You absorb the cost of abusers as a cost of doing business and move on. Only control freak a-holes feel a need to create policies for the 1%.

The expectation is being set somewhere though. Again, I'm talking specifically about the problem that we had going on over here. It was NOT 1%.
 
Guys. We can beat this horse forever. I think on the whole we agree, but we differ on the fringes.

Let's just move on. We can talk more over a beer someday, in person.
 
There's a lot of study in this topic, particularly after WWII. How could good people send a whole race of people to a gas chamber? Anyway, social norms drift, particularly without boundaries.

LOLWUT

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The moment they make a mistake administering it, and they will, it makes them loose all credibility.

Sure, but since achieving #4 is a fairy tale anyway, it's not much more suspension of disbelief to assume the safety folks would be fine.
 
I'm not excited about safety administering it, but we had good success with safety administering fatigue, which is nothing but a part of the IMSAFE checklist. I just feel that sick policy needs to be removed from ops.

Fatigue is very different than sick. With rare exceptions, fatigue is caused by work related issues (schedules, hotels etc) that can very much fall under the domain of a safety department. Sick calls (real ones, not the sickation type that apparently are so prevalent at JetBlue) are not necessarily caused by work related issues and as such the safety department really shouldn't be involved at all, beyond MAYBE trying to keep the airplanes more clean.

There's a lot of study in this topic, particularly after WWII. How could good people send a whole race of people to a gas chamber? Anyway, social norms drift, particularly without boundaries.

137081GodwinsLawSTRIKESAGAIN.jpg
 
I agree.

BUT my point is that you've got to draw the boundaries so people know where the limits are. JetBlue went far too long with it being the Wild Wild West, and things got out of hand.

You'll never get rid of the hard core abusers, and I would never attempt to.

When I started at the airline I fly for there was a lot of "sick abuse" in my base so claimed the company, than about a year after I started "sick abuse" dropped to almost zero, now within the last year the company is claiming "sick abuse" is out of control.
What changed in this time frame? It wasn't policy, it wasn't the pilots in the base.

What do you think could have caused this change?
 
Frankly, I'm a bit disgusted to see a person intimately familiar with Just Culture and Safety on here touting the need for attendance policies to counter sick leave abuse.

My argument has been with Seggy that his position is indefensible, as most absolute arguments are.

If you're sick, call in sick.
 
My god. This is still going on?

Airlines have sick policies. They're a business. Accept it and move on. You're not going to get far with "You shouldn't have a policy because we can't fly sick." It's not going to work. It hasn't worked in decades. On the flip side, any airline that actually fires someone for calling in sick when they're sick is gonna have one hell of a legal pay out. Now, if they bust you because you called in sick because you couldn't get a day off to get drunk and watch Denver get trounced by the Seahawks, well, you get what you deserve on that one. If people wouldn't call in sick to get days off, I honestly don't think there would be a need for attendance policies. However, that'll never happen in ANY job. Rare? Hell, no. I called it a week ago when I saw I was on reserve on Super Bowl Sunday. "Someone's going to call in sick, and we're gonna drop below reserve coverage." Now, someone may have been legitimately sick, and that's cool. However, having sat around and not gotten a call for 3 days, and then I get called out to cover a day trip on Super Bowl Sunday kinda makes me wonder. Oh, and since we were already at min coverage for reserves in base, no one could use PTO to just drop the day. Here's the thing with sick policies, unless you have a problem that needs to be fixed, you're probably not going to get close to any kind of reprimands IF you call in sick when you're sick. If you DO have a problem, that's what FMLA is for. I've got intermittent FMLA just in case I need to take a few days off to take care of my wife. Company can't say anything about it, and it doesn't count in the sick policy. Now, if you call in sick to get that "perfect schedule" a couple of months, and THEN get sick a few times, well, you're more in less the target audience anyway. My beef with the attendance policy here is how it was implemented, and I think the day absent in a 12 month period that triggers a review is way too low. We also can't "call in well" (yet), so if you have a 4 day and are sick on day 1 but well by day 3, you still get dinged with 2 extra days even though you could have flown if you wanted to. Until they get that fixed, I don't think there should be a max in 12 months. As it stands now, call in sick for 2 4-day trips, and you'll be getting a phone call. That's WAAAAY too low. Even someone that gets sick like a normal person is gonna call in that much in a year. It should be on a trip basis rather than a day basis. I also think that if you have to call in sick for multiple trips over a set period of time (like say 7-10 days), it should count as one occurrence since it's the same illness. We've got something similar in the new attendance policy, but I don't think the window is long enough.

As for "If you have PTO you should be able to use it," we might as well just shut the doors on the holidays. There's no way EVERYONE that a) has PTO and b) wants that day off can get it. "Well, they should have more reserves." Guess what? Reserves get PTO as well. That's a silly stance on the issue.

I see a lot of people saying that sick policies are bad and shouldn't be used to counter sick leave abuse, but I have yet to see anyone on that side of the argument put forth a valid example of how to curb the abuse without a policy. If you've got a CBA and no sick policy, anyone that gets called in for sick abuse will walk right back out of the office when the rep basically says the company had no grounds to call them in for a meeting. No policy means no violation, no violation means no discipline, no discipline means go do it again because there won't be any consequences. If you DON'T have a CBA and have no sick policy (aka us until a few months ago), there still not much the company can do to you since, again, there was technically no violation of company policy. Get fired for that, and a lawyer would eat them alive on a wrongful termination suit. I've been on the management side of attendance termination outside of the airline industry. The paperwork involved in that is simply staggering, and if it's not all documented, then they won't go forward with the termination for fear of a lawsuit. And that's WITHOUT a federal law saying "don't work sick."
 
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