Jet Blue blames WX, pilot rest rules for system meltdown

[amorris311]

Who do you work for now?

@dingo222 is getting ready to work for the Obama administration.

 

[Seggy]

My goal was for Seggy to back off of his absolute argument. Saying something is "impossible" or "never the case" or "always the case" is stupid. He is doing it to make his point seem more forceful or strong, when in fact taking an absolute stance weakens his position. If he would simply say, "In practice, many attendance programs have had a negative impact on safety." I would completely agree with that. So this whole discussion is really between Seggy and I on a very narrow point.

Once again, I will stand by my absolute argument. We have an obligation per the FAA to NOT fly sick. To have any policy in place that can deter someone from calling in sick is not safe. This is a very black and white issue.

That in mind, I'll happily throw out some ideas that we could toss around. I think to truly build a robust, safety minded program would require a good number of heads getting together to build it. Today's programs have been built by operations-focused people, which is why most programs are less than ideal.

I think a good program would be administered by the safety department, with the responsibility for data tracking and analysis resting with them. When they detect an abnormality or issue, they could contact the crew member anonymously, and see what issues they are having. If the crew member appears to be gaming the system, or has multiple suspicious cases, then the safety department could refer them to the CPO for a carpet dance.

The moment the safety department makes a mistake in identifying one who they think that is abusing the system, and move it to the CPO, that safety department will loose all credibility. Other programs will be affected as folks will loose confidence in the safety department.

The data compiled by the safety department would not be available for the CPO, however, and termination would not be an option. The mere fact that someone is looking and asking questions will prevent most abusers from attempting to game the system.

How can you be sure? After you get all uppity about 'absolute' statements you are saying others will interpret the mechanics of the policy a certain way. Another thing can happen and people may not want to be bothered with someone calling them and fly when they are sick.

I believe that's a good place to start at least. There are certainly HIPPA concerns that would have to be dealt with by someone better versed that I. There may be contract language that could be drafted to address some of the HIPPA laws, etc. I'm not certain what can be done in that regard.

At any rate, I'm not saying that I am the guy to build a good program. I'm just saying that it isn't impossible. We aren't talking about faster than light travel here. We are talking about a policy. There's no room for the words impossible, always and never when talking about something like a HR policy. I'm somewhat baffled that Seggy doesn't understand that.

What baffles and infuriates me is that you are so gung-ho for a sick policy. Outside of the human responsibility, we have hundreds of millions of financial responsibility every time we get go to work, yet we need to be harassed on why we call sick? REALLY? It is disgusting. Who in the world are you to tell people to throw out their HIPPA rights because crew scheduling had to work a little extra to find someone to fly a trip because of a sick call? The laws are the laws.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Once again, I will stand by my absolute argument. We have an obligation per the FAA to NOT fly sick. To have any policy in place that can deter someone from calling in sick is not safe. This is a very black and white issue.

Life isn't black and white. Those who think it is, well, I'm surprised you've made it this far in life.

I'm not going to keep arguing with you. You lost your argument the second you decided to stick to an absolute, but you're too thick headed to realize it.

 

[Seggy]

Life isn't black and white.

Some things are. Like one shouldn't fly sick.

Those who think it is, well, I'm surprised you've made it this far in life.

Ahhh, so you are throwing around insults instead of countering my points?

I'm not going to keep arguing with you. You lost your argument the second you decided to stick to an absolute, but you're too thick headed to realize it.

If it makes you feel better to say that instead of countering my points, ok.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Some things are. Like one shouldn't fly sick.



Ahhh, so you are throwing around insults instead of countering my points?



If it makes you feel better to say that instead of countering my points, ok.

I told you in the private message we should just agree to disagree. You believe what you believe, and it doesn't matter what I say. You can't understand the point I'm making, so why should I keep arguing with you about sick policies?

As far as flying sick, that's NOT black/white. How sick is too sick to fly? A little tickle in your throat? Maybe a little headache? Hmm, are those allergies or do I have a cold starting?

I agree once you make decision that you're too sick to fly you've got to call out, but the part before that when you make that determination is almost never black/white. Every time I've called in sick it's a back and forth in my mind because I'm rarely so sick that I cannot function normally/safely. Typically I call out not because I think I'm unfit, but rather because I don't want to infect anyone.

So no, it's not black/white. I'm done with you.

 

[Nick]

How sick is too sick to fly? A little tickle in your throat? Maybe a little headache? Hmm, are those allergies or do I have a cold starting?

How sick is too sick to fly?

Sick, at all, that's how much.

If you think you're sick or are getting sick, you call in sick.

If the feelings of a cold starting turned out to be allergies after a day, then call in 'well'.

This question is like how fast is too fast when you are talking to a cop.

71 in a 70 zone is over the speed limit. Above 70MPH you are taking on full responsibility that you may very well be written a ticket for speeding if the radar gun is aimed at you.

It doesn't MATTER what everyone else is doing in the lanes around you. You're over.

Of course it's a judgement call. That's why not having a sick policy, or as close as possible to not having one, is important.

 

[Snuggle]

Trying to police a few pilots really isn't worth the safety risks that come with a sick policy.

As a industry I'd rather see a move away from this idea of targeting the individuals.
Zoom out and consider the overall negative impact that approach can have on the entire safety culture at a company.
IMO that's much worse then the abuse by a few individuals.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

How sick is too sick to fly?

Sick, at all, that's how much.

If you think you're sick or are getting sick, you call in sick.

If the feelings of a cold starting turned out to be allergies after a day, then call in 'well'.

This question is like how fast is too fast when you are talking to a cop.

71 in a 70 zone is over the speed limit. Above 70MPH you are taking on full responsibility that you may very well be written a ticket for speeding if the radar gun is aimed at you.

It doesn't MATTER what everyone else is doing in the lanes around you. You're over.

Of course it's a judgement call. That's why not having a sick policy, or as close as possible to not having one, is important.

Most people do not operate that way (calling in sick when even the slightest hint of sickness is there). Maybe in a perfect world they would, but I don't get enough sick time to cover calling in sick every time I get a little sniffle or wake up with a headache. I call in sick when I feel unfit to fly and/or when I might get my crew sick.

And I might agree with the speeding example if there were a "fitness for duty" indicator in your head. There isn't. It's subjective, at best. You have to make that call.

Let me ask you this. Does the company have the right to expect you to be reliable? If you're just one of those guys who gets sick a lot, should you be a pilot, given that you can't do your job if you're sick all the time? If I get unfit to fly once a month, maybe I should find something else to do that is less dependent upon my health.

Even "regular" people can't do their jobs if they are sick all the time. Most people will get fired if they are unreliable, even if they are legitimately sick each time. I do not think that pilots are very different. We should get more leeway than typical, but at some point if you're completely unreliable, that's unacceptable, even for a pilot.

You guys do know that Delta asks how many times you've called out sick in their interview process, right? They want reliable people, for obvious reasons.

I guess I just feel that there's a happy medium somewhere. The company has a business to run. We have to feel comfortable removing ourselves from duty when necessary. There's middle ground somewhere in there. A lot of companies have sick policies, so clearly some middle ground has been found. If there hadn't been, the FAA would've outlawed sick policies by now.

 

[Seggy]

Let me ask you this. Does the company have the right to expect you to be reliable?

Yes. Being reliable is showing up for work on time if you are fit to fly. If you are late once or twice every few years, things happen.

If you're just one of those guys who gets sick a lot, should you be a pilot, given that you can't do your job if you're sick all the time? If I get unfit to fly once a month, maybe I should find something else to do that is less dependent upon my health.

Wow, just wow. Have I stumbled on managementcareers.com??? Anyway.....

I have been sick three times the last three months. I had the flu, a horrible ear infection, and a stomach virus. I only had to call in sick for the horrible ear infection, but a few hours getting sick in either direction of the flu and virus, I would have had to use two other sick calls. Your 'I hardly get sick bravado' works great for you, but others do get sick. It is called science. You will get sick in your life. Anyway, I have NEVER been this sick as I have been the last three months in my almost nine year career. We work in a germ filled environment were OSHA standards of cleanliness aren't required. Yet, you are on a soapbox trying to be all high and mighty on how we should be ashamed of ourselves for getting sick.

Even "regular" people can't do their jobs if they are sick all the time. Most people will get fired if they are unreliable, even if they are legitimately sick each time. I do not think that pilots are very different. We should get more leeway than typical, but at some point if you're completely unreliable, that's unacceptable, even for a pilot.

Being unreliable is showing up for work late.

FMLA was created because of your thought processes that others in management have. Even with that, FMLA doesn't go far enough to protect workers. Where do we draw the line? A woman gets breast cancer, it gets treated and goes into remission, but a few years later it comes back. Is she unreliable in your mind? Someone has horrible sinus problems, should they not be a pilot? I would LOVE to hear your opinion on the sinus problem one as we have quite a few folks this website who suffer from sinus problems and miss work, and you are here telling them they should look for another line of work? Aren't we supposed to want people to pursue their dreams on here?

You guys do know that Delta asks how many times you've called out sick in their interview process, right? They want reliable people, for obvious reasons.

That question is borderline illegal to ask.

I guess I just feel that there's a happy medium somewhere. The company has a business to run. We have to feel comfortable removing ourselves from duty when necessary. There's middle ground somewhere in there. A lot of companies have sick policies, so clearly some middle ground has been found. If there hadn't been, the FAA would've outlawed sick policies by now.

The FAA has their head so far up their ass with the sick policies that are in place. Ask me how I know.

Once again this is a black and white issue. Sick policies should be outlawed.

I would love to hear @HRDiva take on your thought processes.

 

[Dugie8]

Piedmont had an sick policy. Any more than 6 sick calls in a rolling 12 month period was warning letter, 7 was "counciling" and 8 was possible termination. I asked what happens if you had a bad stretch and got sick a lot? Answer was: Maybe you shouldn't be a pilot if you can't NOT be sick.

Made for a real easy time to call in sick...... not (/80s)

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

There's no bravado here. I've called in sick more in the last year and a half than my previous 8 years combined due to my new kid bringing home whatever up and coming virus walks into her daycare. Thankfully that's slowing down now. I have a trip tomorrow, but I still have a little congestion from a cold from 13 days ago...Oh wait THIS IS BLACK AND WHITE!!! I've got to call in sick because I'm not 100% free of that cold. I'll get right on that...

Clearly people get sick, and it can come in waves, but if year in year out you're sick for more than once a month, well, are you in the right job? I think that's a fair question. Not everyone is healthy enough to be a pilot.

When reading your posts I feel like I've stumbled upon laboronlypointofview.com. I can see both sides of the show, can you say the same for yourself?

 

[amorris311]

There's no bravado here. I've called in sick more in the last year and a half than my previous 8 years combined due to my new kid bringing home whatever up and coming virus walks into her daycare. Thankfully that's slowing down now. I have a trip tomorrow, but I still have a little congestion from a cold from 13 days ago...Oh wait THIS IS BLACK AND WHITE!!! I've got to call in sick because I'm not 100% free of that cold. I'll get right on that...

Clearly people get sick, and it can come in waves, but if year in year out you're sick for more than once a month, well, are you in the right job? I think that's a fair question. Not everyone is healthy enough to be a pilot.

When reading your posts I feel like I've stumbled upon laboronlypointofview.com. I can see both sides of the show, can you say the same for yourself?

You understand you are labor right?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

There's no bravado here. I've called in sick more in the last year and a half than my previous 8 years combined due to my new kid bringing home whatever up and coming virus walks into her daycare. Thankfully that's slowing down now. I have a trip tomorrow, but I still have a little congestion from a cold from 13 days ago...Oh wait THIS IS BLACK AND WHITE!!! I've got to call in sick because I'm not 100% free of that cold. I'll get right on that...

Clearly people get sick, and it can come in waves, but if year in year out you're sick for more than once a month, well, are you in the right job? I think that's a fair question. Not everyone is healthy enough to be a pilot.

When reading your posts I feel like I've stumbled upon laboronlypointofview.com. I can see both sides of the show, can you say the same for yourself?

I'm pretty sure everyone has the bravado... But having congestion ( a sign of a coming cold, a current cold, or a past cold ) is technically grounds for temporary suspension of the medical certificate. The regs don't state "almost well."

It's like the argument that, while you aren't drunk, a hangover is technically still drunkeness in the eyes of the FAA.

We would love these things not to be black and white, but they are.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

You understand you are labor right?

We are labor, but we are all part of the company, and collectively responsible for its success. I do not believe in the mgmt vs labor divide. We all should be rowing in the same direction.

So no, I do not believe in viewing and espousing only one side of a discussion. I see Seggy's points, and the only thing I disagree with is the absolute nature of his argument. But you see, his black/ white mentality seems to be part of his psyche. After all it's labor/ management in his mind, just like it's probably liberal/ conservative too. I'm a gun loving/owning liberal - Seggy's mind just exploded.

Black/ white is something we do to make the gray world easier for our minds to comprehend, but it isn't reality.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

I'm pretty sure everyone has the bravado... But having congestion ( a sign of a coming cold, a current cold, or a past cold ) is technically grounds for temporary suspension of the medical certificate. The regs don't state "almost well."

It's like the argument that, while you aren't drunk, a hangover is technically still drunkeness in the eyes of the FAA.

We would love these things not to be black and white, but they are.

By that strict of a reading of the regs, at least 50% of the people flying tomorrow aren't fit for duty. If we all started calling out sick with that interpretation, the system would grind to a halt, and the FAA would be forced to change the regs.

The regs may be written in black/ white, but the practical application and interpretation of them is most certainly not.

 

[averettpilot]

Does the congestion make you unfit to fly? The question is fit or unfit.

Also, I agree it is black and white. You should not have to answer to your company as to whether you are sick or not. As I said before, there is no limit to how long it takes to recover. I would again say the only policy a company should have is to require a return to service note from a doctor to prevent pressure to return to work while still unfit to fly.

I have a question for you airline types. When you say sick call, in the context of no more than 6 sick calls in a 12 month period, are you talking about days or events?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'll use my own personal example to show how these sick policies are absolutely abhorrent.

In the past 12 months, I've had 12 "occurrences." Of course, they aren't actually tracked by management for any sort of disciplinary basis, because my company isn't allowed to do so. We negotiated into our contract that management is absolutely prohibited from instituting any sort of sick or attendance policy. Amazingly, the airline didn't collapse. Imagine that.

So, anyway, my 12 sick calls. I've been dealing with sinus problems my whole life. But in recent years, it's been getting worse and worse. This past year was the worst yet, and it was truly awful. Numerous sinus infections, and one infection that lasted an entire month and finally spurred me to go talk to an ENT about surgery. Along with these sinus problems, I also had the flu. So, all together, before I even had the surgery, I was already at 10 sick events. By every sick policy in the industry that I'm aware of, I would have been fired. Most have the limit right around 7-9 sick calls, and I had surpassed it.

So, if I had been working at one of these other airlines, and they had called me in for my termination, what would my recourse be? The only way to fight it would be to disclose my personal medical records to show my history of sinus problems and my need for surgery. Those medical records are supposed to be deeply personal and protected by federal law. But in order to keep my job (or even to just have a chance at keeping my job), I would have to disclose those records. No one should ever be backed into a corner like that. My medical records are none of the company's or some arbitrator's business.

The fact of the matter is, if someone is abusing sick time and isn't really sick, companies have ways of finding out. It's just more expensive to do so. Private investigators make good money investigating abuses of worker's comp and disability claims. But the airlines don't want to spend the money on doing that sort of thing, so they put this arbitrary system in place that just counts "occurrences," even though the number of times someone has called in sick may not mean jack. It's lazy and irresponsible management. And in an industry like ours, it's dangerous.

 

[DE727UPS]

"By every sick policy in the industry that I'm aware of, I would have been fired."

You are not aware of the IPA contract. Worst you would get is a call from management after 6 in 12. Continued abuse would get a letter in your file. Continued abuse could get you fired. It's not abuse if you tell them you have a sinus problem. If you want to not tell them your deal, that's cool, you get asked to go on disability (don't ask me how I know). You don't get fired. Only guys I know got fired were positive drug tests and blatantly lying to the company.

"The only way to fight it would be to disclose my personal medical records to show my history of sinus problems and my need for surgery."

K...so you don't want to disclose your sinus problem cause you think medical records should be protected??? Pick your battles Todd. You don't want to disclose a sex change? I get that....but you don't want to save your job by simply admitting you have a sinus problem that surgery fixed? It seems like you are trying to test the system to it's worst case extent to save the world from the tyrannical evil airline management. Good luck with that. Most of us don't feel the need to go to such extremes.

"The fact of the matter is, if someone is abusing sick time and isn't really sick, companies have ways of finding out."

Yes, yes they do. Your scenario wouldn't meet the "I get fired" at my non-ALPA contract airline. Still trying to figure out what you're worried about......

 

[BobDDuck]

Still trying to figure out what you're worried about......

He's worried about the places that have sick policies that state after 6 calls you get a letter and then after 8 calls you get fired.

I worked under a policy like that for a bit and flew with a whole lot of people that had no business being in the cockpit because they were sick and unable to perform their jobs but didn't want to get a letter in their file. It was even worse for the FAs.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You are not aware of the IPA contract. Worst you would get is a call from management after 6 in 12. Continued abuse would get a letter in your file. Continued abuse could get you fired. It's not abuse if you tell them you have a sinus problem. If you want to not tell them your deal, that's cool, you get asked to go on disability (don't ask me how I know). You don't get fired. Only guys I know got fired were positive drug tests and blatantly lying to the company.

So, in summary, the IPA contract is really no different than the others. Start getting harassed at 6 sick events, and get fired for "continued abuse." No thanks. I prefer the AirTran contract: no attendance policy permitted at all.

K...so you don't want to disclose your sinus problem cause you think medical records should be protected??? Pick your battles Todd.

I'd say that's a pretty important battle to pick. Management has no right to your medical information. If you think it's ok for them to harass you for using sick time that you're contractually entitled to, then I really don't know what to say to such silliness.