Is your plane’s pilot bone-tired?

[Firebird2XC]

"You never know until you do it" is sadly very, very accurate. It's not just airlines, it's everything. The world hums merrily along fueled by the selling of dreams. If I get the right shoes the chicks will dig me, if I drive the right car, I'll be respected, if I get a good education, my interior life will be better. If I become an airline pilot, everything will be ok." Certainly, improve your circumstances, but you'd better work on being happy with who you are and what you have, because there is no magic bullet. And the more you think there is one, the more easy you are to take advantage of for those with no moral compass and an eternal hunger for More. It's cold comfort that in the end they won't be any happier than you will. This is how the world works. We can improve it, but we can't change it. That's another illusion.

Not to contradict what Boris has said, but to pivot off it and use the momentum-

There is no single magic bullet of life improvement.

I do, however, intend to use enough bullets of improvement as I'm able.

All great achievements in history started with a simple concept:

"I can do better than this, and will bend my heart, mind, body and soul to do it."

"I may or may not be able to do it alone, but I will seek others like me, and together we will do what we can."

To seek perfection is foolish- there is no such thing. To seek improvement is all we have, and we should seek that with whatever we've got.

So yes, to those who wring their hands and grunt that nothing will ever change, you're right- nothing in your world will ever change.

You'll still be the ones content to take whatever you're given and grind out an existence with only that. If any change occurs in your life, it will be
because you're riding the coattails of those willing to work for improvement in their own lives.

It might be nice to have a little bit of that of your own.

Rather than sit back and jeer at the pilot in the article above, I suggest you try that person's method.

You might be surprised.

 

[jtrain609]

you know, i sympathize for my fellow pilots, i really do, but, everyone knew what they were getting into when they started this job. Im all for better pay and working conditions, but dont go crying to a major news paper about how you have to commute 1600 miles and drink 4 cups of coffee to stay awake when you knew thats exactly what you were signing up for.

I mean really, thats like a freight dog going out and bitching about pulling 14 hour over nights 6 days in a row. Everyone knows the score, they just get pissed when it doesnt change as quickly as they think it will.

That's some horrible, horrible logic.

The same could be applied to sweat shop labor.

Or child labor.

Or indentured servitude.

Or any number of labor practices that are presently outlawed in this country.

With a "don't complain or you'll piss off the boss" attitude such as the one you're demonstrating, nothing will ever change.

 

[Hootie]

You kids need to pay your dues!!

 

[jtrain609]

You kids need to pay your dues!!

Your face needs to pay its dues!!!

Ron Paul 2012.

 

[Firebird2XC]

You kids need to pay your dues!!

Ha! I seriously laughed out loud at that one. Good one.

 

[ETAV8R]

(and could it cost you your life)
...The pilot who told his tale of woe earned $28,000 last year - less than the average Los Angeles bus driver.

and so it happens... those who enter at the bottom are less than 'a glorified bus driver'.

 

[BajtheJino]

Fatigue is a problem that has been going on for decades. The pilots have not had a choice but to accept it. That does not make it right. And it does not make it safe. It's amazing more people haven't been killed because of fatigue issues.

You can't blame the airlines for taking advantage of the situation. Those that didn't were at a competitive disadvantage. Again that does not make it right and it does not make it safe.

Flight 3407 has a shot at changing things for the better. One of the things it has put in the forefront is the fatigue issue.

When you look at all of the possible things that can be changed because of 3407, fatigue and work rules are at the top of the list and will provide the most benefit to all pilots.

Once the fatigue workrules are in place and every airline has to follow the same work and duty rules that actually take fatigue into consideration then everyone will benefit.

I can't imagine why any commerical pilot would not support these workrule changes.

Heres one pilot that doesn't support the new work rules. In fact, the rules the way they're worded right now will force me to stay in a hotel every other day versus being home every day.
I'm a 121 freight pilot so I'm gonna say what I want. Thanks to ALPA writing the new work rules my duty day will be limited to 10 hours (duty day falls between 12-5 or is it 6?). My day right now runs 11 hours, sometimes when the fog moves in we run 15 hours. I have no problem with this. I guess I must be one of the people that understands my job and goes to bed to make sure I'm rested when I go to work. I am absolutely sick and tired of people (regional guys. Yeah, you.) f'n up my job. You don't want a commute? Live in base. You want to fly bigger for less that's fine just quit bitching and screwing things up for the guys that like their jobs and aren't auguring into the ground.
Word has also filtered down that because the company may have to increase pilot numbers by 30% that we can forget most of the raises we were expecting. Wow! Imagine that? The company has to do the same amount of work with even more people with the same amount of income. Why would I expect to get more money for doing less work.
Heresy, I know. Imagine, someone that isn't dissatisfied with their job but is with their fellow pilots.

Btw, drinking four large cups of coffee during the day may be the reason the guy only get a few hours of sleep in the hotel.
Remember people, a healthy diet, exercise and limited caffeine intake are the best ways to a good night sleep. All can be done on the road and the hotel.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Heres one pilot that doesn't support the new work rules. In fact, the rules the way they're worded right now will force me to stay in a hotel every other day versus being home every day.
I'm a 121 freight pilot so I'm gonna say what I want. Thanks to ALPA writing the new work rules my duty day will be limited to 10 hours (duty day falls between 12-5 or is it 6?). My day right now runs 11 hours, sometimes when the fog moves in we run 15 hours. I have no problem with this. I guess I must be one of the people that understands my job and goes to bed to make sure I'm rested when I go to work. I am absolutely sick and tired of people (regional guys. Yeah, you.) f'n up my job. You don't want a commute? Live in base. You want to fly bigger for less that's fine just quit bitching and screwing things up for the guys that like their jobs and aren't auguring into the ground.
Word has also filtered down that because the company may have to increase pilot numbers by 30% that we can forget most of the raises we were expecting. Wow! Imagine that? The company has to do the same amount of work with even more people with the same amount of income. Why would I expect to get more money for doing less work.
Heresy, I know. Imagine, someone that isn't dissatisfied with their job but is with their fellow pilots.

Btw, drinking four large cups of coffee during the day may be the reason the guy only get a few hours of sleep in the hotel.
Remember people, a healthy diet, exercise and limited caffeine intake are the best ways to a good night sleep. All can be done on the road and the hotel.

BajtheJino you will benefit from the workrule changes. Your company (and all other affected companies) will adjust their flight schedules to comply with the changes. You will not be put in a position to have any possibility of being purposely fatigued by your company flight schedule. This will make you a safer pilot.

Right now you are flying freight for an air carrier you are just thrilled with. That is wonderful. However it is very possible that you be flying for another air carrier one day. That air carrier might not be so wonderful and you will be glad these workrules are in place.

This "I've got mine" and "screw the rest of you" attitute that some have in this industry is one of the reasons we still have these obsolete work rules. This has allowed the industry to divide us to our own detriment. I learned a long time ago that if you sit back and watch someone or some company continue to screw others over then its just a matter of time before you are also screwed over.

I see many complaining that RJ pilots make $18,000-$22,000 to fly passengers around. But every one of those RJ contracts was voted in by the pilots and the union. Of course the pilots voting the contract in are not the ones making $18,000-$22,000 so they don't care because "they have theirs."

I don't know what the lines looked like 30 or 40 years ago. I do know today there are many pilots and flight attendants (at many airlines) with fatigue inducing lines and work schedules.

We are not robots and we should not be treated as such. We are human beings that need the proper amount of rest to safely transport passengers as well as important time sensitive freight. To allow pilots less rest than is allowed truck drivers is outrageous and unsafe.

This is not fair to the passengers, the freight, or anyone that might be hit on the ground, by an aircraft, because of a fatigue issue.

This is not just a regional airline issue. This issue affects all air carriers.

You are correct in that these workrule changes will require 30% (or more) pilots and flight attendants to fly the same routes. That's not a bad thing. That's a safe thing. That's going to make just about every pilot's and flight attendant's Quality Of Life much better. That will lead to happier flight crews which will lead to happier passengers.

Contrast that to what we have today where the rubber band is wound up so tight and there is no flex in the system available for things like weather delays, mechanicals, etc. The crews are wound up and the passengers are wound up. It should not be this way and hopefully these new workrules will help fix this issue and get this industry back on the proper track.

 

[MikeD]

That's some horrible, horrible logic.

The same could be applied to sweat shop labor.

Or child labor.

Or indentured servitude.

Or any number of labor practices that are presently outlawed in this country.

With a "don't complain or you'll piss off the boss" attitude such as the one you're demonstrating, nothing will ever change.

Kind of a tangent of examples being thrown around, but I think the main point should be that things won't change for the industry until there are less pilots willing to sell their souls to do the crappy jobs. Every low-end regional that has stacks of resumes on the HR desks is, in essence, demonstrating that things must be OK in the industry, because who in their right mind would fight so hard to get into something so unsafe?

Until the stacks of resumes begin lessening, the road to fixing some of the problems inherent to the biz will continue to be a very steep uphill battle, IMHO

 

[jtrain609]

Kind of a tangent of examples being thrown around, but I think the main point should be that things won't change for the industry until there are less pilots willing to sell their souls to do the crappy jobs.

Actually I don't think that's the bottom of the barrel. We still have the MPL to get through before we hit that point.

Further, and I guess more to the point, do we want to let things get that bad before fixes are made?

Simply put, I don't trust the market to fix this. We need to do it ourselves.

Every low-end regional that has stacks of resumes on the HR desks is, in essence, demonstrating that things must be OK in the industry, because who in their right mind would fight so hard to get into something so unsafe?

Until the stacks of resumes begin lessening, the road to fixing some of the problems inherent to the biz will continue to be a very steep uphill battle, IMHO

 

[MikeD]

Actually I don't think that's the bottom of the barrel. We still have the MPL to get through before we hit that point.

Further, and I guess more to the point, do we want to let things get that bad before fixes are made?

Simply put, I don't trust the market to fix this. We need to do it ourselves.

Agree with you. However until this:

Until the stacks of resumes begin lessening, the road to fixing some of the problems inherent to the biz will continue to be a very steep uphill battle, IMHO

...gets fixed, the battle will be a difficult one for just the reason stated. Not that any battles are necessarily easy, but with this one, those trying to do the fixing will be directly battling their counterparts trying to get a piece of the SJS pie.

 

[jtrain609]

Which is why we need, and say it with me, Mike; increased government regulation.

Artificially make the market smaller. I know the Reaganites are probably stroking out while reading that, but we do it all the time without questioning it, so why not do it here?

 

[Hootie]

Artificially make the market smaller. I know the Reaganites are probably stroking out while reading that, but we do it all the time without questioning it, so why not do it here?

Agreed. Many agricultural items are restricted from being imported to their full free market capacity, thus making the domestically grown items more expensive and thus insulating the producers. While I dont agree with it necessarily, it is commonly practiced in this country, and I dont see why it couldn't be implemented in the airline industry.

 

[twotwowoo]

Which is why we need, and say it with me, Mike; increased government regulation.

Artificially make the market smaller. I know the Reaganites are probably stroking out while reading that, but we do it all the time without questioning it, so why not do it here?

I'd be all for some pre-1978 style regulation. Looking back, the industry was much better for pilots, passengers, and employees before deregulation. I know it will probably never happen, but re-regulation is the best thing for the industry.

 

[cmill]

and so it happens... those who enter at the bottom are less than 'a glorified bus driver'.

I saw a guy at the store the other day who was driving one of those charter buses. He had on a full pilot's uniform with four stripes and everything. Only thing missing were the wings.

 

[twotwowoo]

I saw a guy at the store the other day who was driving one of those charter buses. He had on a full pilot's uniform with four stripes and everything. Only thing missing were the wings.

Captain of the highways!

 

[MikeD]

Which is why we need, and say it with me, Mike; increased government regulation.

You are the devil.......

 

[BajtheJino]

BajtheJino you will benefit from the workrule changes. Your company (and all other affected companies) will adjust their flight schedules to comply with the changes. You will not be put in a position to have any possibility of being purposely fatigued by your company flight schedule. This will make you a safer pilot.

What?! Benefit by being in a hotel every other day instead of being home in my own bed (like I am now) away from friends and family and the healthy food I'm able to fix for myself? Now I'll be able to sleep in a bed that I'd be afraid to look at in a black light and eat the limited food available to me since I won't have a car. Walking distance or delivery. High sodium content and preservatives are more detrimental to my health than a 12 hour duty day.
I'm already a safe pilot! Doing less work, staying in a hotel and making less money will not make me any safer!

Right now you are flying freight for an air carrier you are just thrilled with. That is wonderful. However it is very possible that you be flying for another air carrier one day. That air carrier might not be so wonderful and you will be glad these workrules are in place.

Thrilled? Thats pretty strong. I said I like my job and am happy with the way things are. One thing is sure though, when I do start looking for a new job I think I'll have the ability to chose from a dirt bag outfit. I'll be able to pick and chose when the time come thanks to my resume. One thing is for sure I can give you a 90% guarantee it will not be in this country.

This "I've got mine" and "screw the rest of you" attitude that some have in this industry is one of the reasons we still have these obsolete work rules. This has allowed the industry to divide us to our own detriment. I learned a long time ago that if you sit back and watch someone or some company continue to screw others over then its just a matter of time before you are also screwed over.

Kinda makes you wonder why so many guys ran to Colgan, TSA, Mesa, Piedmont, Eagle, the list goes on and on...

We are not robots and we should not be treated as such. We are human beings that need the proper amount of rest to safely transport passengers as well as important time sensitive freight. To allow pilots less rest than is allowed truck drivers is outrageous and unsafe.

Is it? Do truck drivers have autopilots? My schedule allows me to sleep three hours a night during my duty time. I get 7 weeks paid vacation this year. When I upgrade to Capt. I'll get 15 weeks paid. Thanks to this new bill those weeks will drop down to 4 weeks. Now, who will be the more fatigued?

This is not fair to the passengers, the freight, or anyone that might be hit on the ground, by an aircraft, because of a fatigue issue.

This is not just a regional airline issue. This issue affects all air carriers.

Are airplanes falling out of the sky? Or is it the pilots fault? Why do people feel their entitled to live all over the country? If people lived in their base how much of this would be a problem? Entitlement, perhaps?

You are correct in that these workrule changes will require 30% (or more) pilots and flight attendants to fly the same routes. That's not a bad thing. That's a safe thing. That's going to make just about every pilot's and flight attendant's Quality Of Life much better. That will lead to happier flight crews which will lead to happier passengers.

Contrast that to what we have today where the rubber band is wound up so tight and there is no flex in the system available for things like weather delays, mechanicals, etc.

My QOL is going to improve? NO IT ISN'T. I'll be living in hotels more. Havce Less pay. Gone from home more. How is this better?

The crews are wound up and the passengers are wound up. It should not be this way and hopefully these new workrules will help fix this issue and get this industry back on the proper track.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

What, pray tell, is the Proper Track?
What experience do you have with this?

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

What?! Benefit by being in a hotel every other day instead of being home in my own bed (like I am now) away from friends and family and the healthy food I'm able to fix for myself? Now I'll be able to sleep in a bed that I'd be afraid to look at in a black light and eat the limited food available to me since I won't have a car. Walking distance or delivery. High sodium content and preservatives are more detrimental to my health than a 12 hour duty day.
I'm already a safe pilot! Doing less work, staying in a hotel and making less money will not make me any safer!

BajtheJino, many Pilots spend many nights each month in hotel rooms. It's part of the business and I'm sure you knew this when you signed into aviation. As far as the high sodium content and preservatives in food, I am concerned about the very same thing at home as well as when I travel and I have been able to work around this issue. You have to be careful and read a lot of labels, but it can be done.

Thrilled? Thats pretty strong. I said I like my job and am happy with the way things are. One thing is sure though, when I do start looking for a new job I think I'll have the ability to chose from a dirt bag outfit. I'll be able to pick and chose when the time come thanks to my resume. One thing is for sure I can give you a 90% guarantee it will not be in this country.

I'm not sure what you are saying, but I will agree there are some foreign airlines that are better than domestic airlines. However there are some foreign airlines that I wouldn't want to set foot on.

Kinda makes you wonder why so many guys ran to Colgan, TSA, Mesa, Piedmont, Eagle, the list goes on and on...

Probably because that is where the passengers were flying and thus jobs were available.

Is it? Do truck drivers have autopilots? My schedule allows me to sleep three hours a night during my duty time. I get 7 weeks paid vacation this year. When I upgrade to Capt. I'll get 15 weeks paid. Thanks to this new bill those weeks will drop down to 4 weeks. Now, who will be the more fatigued?

Well trucks have cruise control and I'm sure that helps. As far as you being able to sleep three hours during your duty time, that is between your company and yourself.

I see nothing in the new workrules that requires, or even mentions that your 7 weeks (or 15 weeks) of paid vacation should be taken away. If your company decides to take away your earned vacation then that sounds to me like your company isn't as wonderful as you make them out to be if they are taking all of this from you.

Are airplanes falling out of the sky?

Well yes they are.

Or is it the pilots fault?

It may not be their fault but pilots sure seem to get blamed a lot for the accidents.

Why do people feel their entitled to live all over the country?

The problem is often caused because airlines change or close bases. The reason is because this business (like any business) is always in a state of change. It's sometimes not possible to just move everytime an airline changes or closes a base. Often it's just not economically feasible to move into a particular base in the first place.

If people lived in their base how much of this would be a problem? Entitlement, perhaps?

I think you'll find that many pilots do live in their bases and yes fatigue is still a problem. This is a line schedule problem. I never can figure out how they come up with some of the parings. There is a lot of room for improvement here.

My QOL is going to improve? NO IT ISN'T. I'll be living in hotels more. Havce Less pay. Gone from home more. How is this better?

We haven't seen how the air carriers are going to work out their new lines as they comply with the new workrules. You might actually find you are home more and your schedule is more manageable.

What, pray tell, is the Proper Track?

The proper track is not what this industy is on now. Things must change and things will change. It's so sad that a tragic event like 3407 has to happen before these changes take place.

What experience do you have with this?

Well a lot actually.