Is this possible?
- Thread starter sorrygottarunway
- Start date
averyrm
Well-Known Member
I would imagine that the Attitude Indicator is not functioning corretly. I would further venture to guess he's in a climbing right turn.
- turn coordinator is inticating a right turn
- 100knts is well below cruise speed for a 182
Unfortunately, it's hard to tell for sure without being there.
- turn coordinator is inticating a right turn
- 100knts is well below cruise speed for a 182
Unfortunately, it's hard to tell for sure without being there.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
I still buy the wing-over theory:
Quick pull up from Va would yield more than 1500 fpm in a 182, especially solo. Then cranking into a 90 deg. bank and leveling pitch at the 90 deg. point of the maneuver- the airspeed would fall off rapidly (as shown) and the VSI wouldn't have completely "caught up" yet (as shown).
Just my $.02. I've never seen a tumbled gyro stay perfectly at 90 deg, so I'm not buying that.
Quick pull up from Va would yield more than 1500 fpm in a 182, especially solo. Then cranking into a 90 deg. bank and leveling pitch at the 90 deg. point of the maneuver- the airspeed would fall off rapidly (as shown) and the VSI wouldn't have completely "caught up" yet (as shown).
Just my $.02. I've never seen a tumbled gyro stay perfectly at 90 deg, so I'm not buying that.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Looks like fun.....in a T-6 or a P-51. At first I thought it might be a failed gyro, or a tumbled AI. AI isn't supposed to tumble until 100 degrees of bank or 60 degrees of pitch, so that SHOULDN'T be it. Wing over sounds good, if someone would just explain again (I'm a bit slow) how that is accomplished.
E_Dawg
Moderator
The only way you're pulling Gs in any turn is if you're maintaining altitude at the same time.
So... if you don't care about the altitude you can pull whatever the heck bank angle you want without having to worry about the Gs; how else would that F-18 in the video be able to roll through 90*!
The guy in the turn, if real, is probably pulling much less than 1G; the turn coordinator is showing not much more than standard rate.
So... if you don't care about the altitude you can pull whatever the heck bank angle you want without having to worry about the Gs; how else would that F-18 in the video be able to roll through 90*!
The guy in the turn, if real, is probably pulling much less than 1G; the turn coordinator is showing not much more than standard rate.
RiddlePilot
New Member
I vote for tumbled AI as well.
Wm226
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know why the Transponder is set to "0"?
Anyways, at first I thought this could have been a sim, but when I looked up the registry number, I found this aircraft for rental:
http://www.aero-beta.de/flieger.htm
Anyways, at first I thought this could have been a sim, but when I looked up the registry number, I found this aircraft for rental:
http://www.aero-beta.de/flieger.htm
sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
Diese Deutschen spinnen einfach!
I guess if you were actually trying to maintain altitude, and the load factor at 90º would rip the wings off...
at 60, my blood rushes to my feet. thats why I thought something was fishy...
I guess if you were actually trying to maintain altitude, and the load factor at 90º would rip the wings off...
at 60, my blood rushes to my feet. thats why I thought something was fishy...
Pilot Hopeful
Well-Known Member
Some notes on your interesting situation —
No doubt this definitely occurred at the 90° point in a wing over. Some posts have expressed disbelief, while others have confirmed why this is possible.
On load factor and stalls…
More recently, one post asked how airplane could be flying at 100 knots in a 90° bank and not stall. Likely, he recalled those aircraft performance charts from training that show load factor increasing without bound approaching a 90° bank. Increased load factor translates into increased stall speed, no? Of course!
However, we do not know the load factor in this particular case. Recall that load factor is generally combined with discussions about maintaining LEVEL flight in turns. Since lift is directed both vertically and horizontally in a turn, overall lift must increase as bank increases so the plane can maintain enough vertical lift for LEVEL flight.
Thus, it is possible to place the aircraft in unusual bank attitudes (such as this one) without stalling or noticing an increase in load factor, provided we do not try to maintain altitude. Quite simply, load factor is not increasing! In fact, the lazy eight and wingover are designed to be performed at roughly 1g, even as bank angle increases.
On cockpit indications…
Someone noted that the ball was not centered. Here is yet another reason why the attitude indicator indicates a wing over to the right…at 90°: at the 90° point of the maneuver, airspeed is slowest and power is still set from when the maneuver was entered.
slow airspeed + higher power setting = pronounced left-turning tendency
The proper correction? Even more right rudder!
So for the nay-sayers…go find a 152 and a fun-loving CFI and take the airplane beyond 60°; it can be done…you will survive…and no, you don’t need parachutes (note the parachute exceptions in 91.307(d) ).
No doubt this definitely occurred at the 90° point in a wing over. Some posts have expressed disbelief, while others have confirmed why this is possible.
On load factor and stalls…
More recently, one post asked how airplane could be flying at 100 knots in a 90° bank and not stall. Likely, he recalled those aircraft performance charts from training that show load factor increasing without bound approaching a 90° bank. Increased load factor translates into increased stall speed, no? Of course!
However, we do not know the load factor in this particular case. Recall that load factor is generally combined with discussions about maintaining LEVEL flight in turns. Since lift is directed both vertically and horizontally in a turn, overall lift must increase as bank increases so the plane can maintain enough vertical lift for LEVEL flight.
Thus, it is possible to place the aircraft in unusual bank attitudes (such as this one) without stalling or noticing an increase in load factor, provided we do not try to maintain altitude. Quite simply, load factor is not increasing! In fact, the lazy eight and wingover are designed to be performed at roughly 1g, even as bank angle increases.
On cockpit indications…
Someone noted that the ball was not centered. Here is yet another reason why the attitude indicator indicates a wing over to the right…at 90°: at the 90° point of the maneuver, airspeed is slowest and power is still set from when the maneuver was entered.
slow airspeed + higher power setting = pronounced left-turning tendency
The proper correction? Even more right rudder!
So for the nay-sayers…go find a 152 and a fun-loving CFI and take the airplane beyond 60°; it can be done…you will survive…and no, you don’t need parachutes (note the parachute exceptions in 91.307(d) ).
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Wingover
[ QUOTE ]
Wing over sounds good, if someone would just explain again (I'm a bit slow) how that is accomplished.
[/ QUOTE ]
A wingover is basically a lazy eight only with much more exaggerated pitch attitudes and bank angles. Its is a 180 deg. change in direction. Power is set and not touched through the maneuver and pitch and bank are constantly changing.
A right wingover would go something like this- broken up into four 45 degree heading change segments:
0-45 deg:
A ref. point is picked on the horizon. Line the airplane up so the ref. point is on the wingtip. Pitch down slightly to achieve the entry speed (not sure what it would be in a 182- maybe ~130). Once you achieve the entry speed, smoothly start pitching up. Passing through level pitch begin a smooth, coordinated turn to the right while continually pitching up. You are increasing pitch attitude and bank angle simultaneously. Once you reach 45 deg. of heading change, your pitch attitude will be at its max, and your bank angle should be about half of what the steepest will be (in this case it will be 90, so at this point your bank would be 45).
45-90 deg:
After reaching the 45 degree point, you no longer continue pitching up. You keep the roll going towards 90 deg. of bank, and you'll need to keep in back pressure to prevent the pitch attitude from falling rapidly. The pitch is decreasing but you are holding some back pressure to slow it. As your line of site passes through the ref. point (90 deg. point of the maneuver), you should be in a vertical right bank, your airspeed should be just above a stall, and your pitch attitude should be level. You should also be coordinated, which at this point will probably require significant bottom (right) rudder and oppposite aileron.
90-135 deg:
After reaching the 90 deg. point, begin to relax back pressure and begin rolling out the bank. Upon reaching the 135 deg. point, your pitch attitude will be at its lowest, your bank (just like at the opposite side- the 45 deg. point) should be half its max, so 45 deg., and airspeed will be increasing.
135-180 deg:
This part seems to take forever- though less so when doing wingovers than lazy eights. Continue the rollout and pull up so as to arrive at wings level, level pitch, and entry airspeed simultaneously (easier than it sounds if the meat of the maneuver went ok).
The whole thing goes fairly quick, so its entirely possible that you could see the panel looking like that at the 90 deg. point (VSI will def. be lagging). Although, you shouldn't really see the panel at all doing a wingover- its allll outside!
[ QUOTE ]
Wing over sounds good, if someone would just explain again (I'm a bit slow) how that is accomplished.
[/ QUOTE ]
A wingover is basically a lazy eight only with much more exaggerated pitch attitudes and bank angles. Its is a 180 deg. change in direction. Power is set and not touched through the maneuver and pitch and bank are constantly changing.
A right wingover would go something like this- broken up into four 45 degree heading change segments:
0-45 deg:
A ref. point is picked on the horizon. Line the airplane up so the ref. point is on the wingtip. Pitch down slightly to achieve the entry speed (not sure what it would be in a 182- maybe ~130). Once you achieve the entry speed, smoothly start pitching up. Passing through level pitch begin a smooth, coordinated turn to the right while continually pitching up. You are increasing pitch attitude and bank angle simultaneously. Once you reach 45 deg. of heading change, your pitch attitude will be at its max, and your bank angle should be about half of what the steepest will be (in this case it will be 90, so at this point your bank would be 45).
45-90 deg:
After reaching the 45 degree point, you no longer continue pitching up. You keep the roll going towards 90 deg. of bank, and you'll need to keep in back pressure to prevent the pitch attitude from falling rapidly. The pitch is decreasing but you are holding some back pressure to slow it. As your line of site passes through the ref. point (90 deg. point of the maneuver), you should be in a vertical right bank, your airspeed should be just above a stall, and your pitch attitude should be level. You should also be coordinated, which at this point will probably require significant bottom (right) rudder and oppposite aileron.
90-135 deg:
After reaching the 90 deg. point, begin to relax back pressure and begin rolling out the bank. Upon reaching the 135 deg. point, your pitch attitude will be at its lowest, your bank (just like at the opposite side- the 45 deg. point) should be half its max, so 45 deg., and airspeed will be increasing.
135-180 deg:
This part seems to take forever- though less so when doing wingovers than lazy eights. Continue the rollout and pull up so as to arrive at wings level, level pitch, and entry airspeed simultaneously (easier than it sounds if the meat of the maneuver went ok).
The whole thing goes fairly quick, so its entirely possible that you could see the panel looking like that at the 90 deg. point (VSI will def. be lagging). Although, you shouldn't really see the panel at all doing a wingover- its allll outside!
sorrygottarunway
Well-Known Member
Re: Wingover
great! I think I have my lesson plan for the next day all set!
great! I think I have my lesson plan for the next day all set!
Jonnyb9040
New Member
Re: Wingover
I am wondering how someone could take such a good picture at that particular attitude.
I am wondering how someone could take such a good picture at that particular attitude.